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[Tutor] beginning to code

On 9/25/17 9:15 AM, Antoon Pardon wrote:
> Op 25-09-17 om 14:53 schreef Ned Batchelder:
>> On 9/25/17 8:24 AM, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>> On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 08:05 pm, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>>>> Pass by reference doesn't imply being able to
>>>> write a swap function.
>>> Really. Do you have a counter-example?
>>>> A swap function as possible in pascal requires two conditions.
>>>> 1) Pass by reference
>>>> 2) Copy-over assignment.
>>> I don't know what you think "copy-over assignment" means, but none of
>>> DuckDuckGo, Google, Bing or Yahoo finds that term except in your post.
>> Would we be able to end these interminable debates if we just agree
>> that we all know how it works, and it isn't important to come up with
>> a simple name for what it is?
> I'm not sure that Steve knows how it works. When he denies that the assignment is
> an alias operation in Python that casts an important doubt.

I can assure you that Steve knows how it works. Again, the disagreement 
is almost certainly over the semantics of the word "alias."
>> It seems clear to me that "value" and "reference" are wildly vague
>> terms, used slightly differently by each language, and by different
>> people even in the same language if they have different perspectives.
> Well in that case and considering your remark above, maybe the residents
> shouldn't be so eager to deny to newbees that python has call by reference.

You're still trying to get people to agree to a label like "call by 
reference."? This is where the disagreement comes from.