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[Python-Dev] Drop/deprecate Tkinter?

On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 12:01:53AM +0200, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Wed, 2 May 2018 22:54:04 +0100
> Paul Moore <p.f.moore at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Nor do I think the tone of his message here is acceptable - regardless
> > of how annoyed he is, posting insults ("no-one gives a damn") about
> > volunteer contributors in a public mailing list isn't reasonable or
> > constructive. Call that "playing speech police" if you want, but I
> > think that being offended or annoyed and saying so is perfectly
> > reasonable.
> Will all due respect, it's sometimes unpredictable what kind of wording
> Anglo-Saxons will take as an insult, as there's lot of obsequiosity
> there that doesn't exist in other cultures. To me, "not give a damn"
> reads like a familiar version of "not care about something", but
> apparently it can be offensive.

I'm Anglo-Saxon[1], and honestly I believe that it is thin-skinned to 
the point of ludicrousness to say that "no-one gives a damn" is an 
insult. This isn't 1939 when Clark Gable's famous line "Frankly my dear, 
I don't give a damn" was considered shocking. Its 2018 and to not give a 
damn is a more forceful way of saying that people don't care, that they 
are indifferent.

It is a truism on the internet that nobody gets to decide for anyone 
else what they do or don't find offensive, but I think that the 
respectful and kind response is to interpret Ivan's statement as a cry 
of anguish and pain, to read it with at least a modicum of sympathy, 
rather than to read it as an insult and offensive accusation of 

(And why should being accused of indifference be offensive? The world is 
full of things I have neither the time nor inclination to give a damn 
about. I deny that I ought to feel guilty or ashamed by that fact.)

I think Guido's response was great: acknowledge Ivan's pain (apparently 
he lost a job or some income) without attacking him, neither dismissing 
Ivan's feelings nor validating them as a tactic for getting his way. 
Thank you Guido for leading by example.

With respect to Paul, I literally cannot imagine why he thinks that 
*anyone*, not even the tkinter maintainers or developers themselves, 
ought to feel *offended* by Ivan's words.

But I think a clue might be his subsequent use of the word *annoyed*. Is 
it annoying to be told that "no-one cares" when in fact you care? Of 
course it can be. It is a perfectly reasonable to feel annoyed. But it 
isn't reasonable to lash out at every little annoyance.

All interpersonal interactions can involve annoyances. And none of us 
are purely on the receiving end, we all also cause them. None of us are 
so perfect that we can afford to lash out each time somebody causes some 
tiny little annoyance. We ought to gloss over the little ones, just as 
we hope others will swallow *their* annoyance at the things we do.

If we're going to be open, respectful and considerate, we have a duty 
not to have a hair-trigger "I'm offended" response at tiny annoyances.

"That's offensive!", in this day and age, is the nuclear weapon of 
interpersonal conflict, and nothing Ivan said was so terrible that it 
deserved such an attack. Not if we are to be open, considerate and 
respectful. We ought to start by respecting the clear emotional pain in 
his email and not responding by going on the attack. "A soft answer 
turns away wrath".

[1] By culture, not genetics.