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[Python-Dev] Comparing PEP 576 and PEP 580

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:52 AM Jeroen Demeyer <J.Demeyer at ugent.be> wrote:

> On 2018-07-05 21:57, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> > Would it be possible to get outside experts to help?
> I don't understand what you mean: to help with what? Designing the PEP?
> Discussing the PEP? Accepting the PEP? Lobbying Python core devs?

It's your PEP. And you seem to be struggling with something. But I can't
tell quite what it is you're struggling with. So if my suggestion isn't
helpful I won't be offended if you ignore it.

At the same time I assume you want your PEP accepted. And PEP 1 clearly
states that that acceptance is up to me, or up to a BDFL-delegate appointed
by me. In this case I don't feel I understand the details well enough to
decide by myself, so I would either need a BDFL-delegate or a lot of help
from people I trust.

> The Cython developers (in particular Stefan Behnel) certainly support my
> work. I have talked with them in person at a workshop and they posted a
> few emails to python-dev and they also gave me some personal comments
> about PEP 580.

And how do they feel about PEP 576? I'd like to see some actual debate of
the pros and cons of the details of PEP 576 vs. PEP 580. So far I mostly
see you and INADA Naoki disagreeing about process, which doesn't give me
the feeling that there is consensus.

As for NumPy, one obvious place where some ideas of PEP 579 could be
> applied is ufuncs. However, typically ufuncs are not *called* in tight
> loops, they implement tight loops internally. So I don't think that
> there is pressing need for anything like PEP 580 in NumPy.

OK, so is it your claim that the NumPy developers don't care about which
one of these PEPs is accepted or even whether one is accepted at all? I'd
like to hear some NumPy developer agree with that.

Finally, I'm unclear on what your opinion on FASTCALL actually is. In the
other thread you seemed to praise it as "just perfect" (not a quote, just
what I came away with from reading the thread). Yet earlier in *this*
thread you seemed to claim that PEP 580 requires changes ro FASTCALL. So
which is it?

--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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