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[tc] [ironic] Promoting ironic to a top-level opendev project?


Hi,

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 11:06 PM Ben Nemec <openstack at nemebean.com> wrote:

> At the risk of getting defensive, I do want to make some points relating
> to Oslo specifically here.
>

I really do hope nothing I've said comes as offensive to the Oslo team. I'm
not blaming you, we're all in this together :)


>
> TLDR at the bottom if your eyes glaze over at the wall of text.
>
> On 4/6/20 3:10 AM, Dmitry Tantsur wrote:
> > With absolutely no disrespect meant to the awesome Oslo team, I think
> > the existence of Oslo libraries is a bad sign. I think as a strong FOSS
> > community we shouldn't invest into libraries that are either useful only
> > to us or at least are marketed this way. For example:
>
> I think it's relevant to keep in mind that Oslo didn't start out as a
> collection of libraries, it started out as a bunch of code forklifted
> from Nova for use by other OpenStack services. It was a significant
> effort just to get the Nova-isms out of it, much less trying to sanitize
> everything OpenStack-specific.
>
> I also don't think it's fair to characterize Oslo as only focused on
> OpenStack today. In reality, many of our new libraries since the initial
> incubator split have been general purpose as often as not. Where they
> haven't, it's things like oslo.limit that are explicitly dependent on an
> OpenStack service (Keystone in this case). We believe in being good OSS
> citizens as much as anyone else.
>
> There's also a boil the ocean problem with trying to generalize every
> solution to every problem. It's a question we ask every time a new
> library is proposed, but in some cases it just doesn't make sense to
> write a library for an audience that may or may not exist. And in some
> cases when such an audience appears, we have refactored libraries to
> make them more general purpose, while often keeping an
> OpenStack-specific layer to ease integration with OpenStack services.
> See oslo.concurrency and fasteners.
>
> In fact, that kind of split is a pretty common pattern, even in cases
> where the underlying library didn't originate in Oslo/OpenStack. Think
> sqlalchemy/oslo.db, dogpile/oslo.cache, kombu/oslo.messaging. A lot of
> Oslo is glue code to make it easier to use something in a common way
> across OpenStack services.
>
> > 1) oslo.config is a fantastic piece of software that the whole python
> > world could benefit from. Same for oslo.service, probably.
>
> oslo.config is an interesting case because there is definitely interest
> outside OpenStack thanks to things like the Castellan config backend,
> but as Doug mentioned oslo.config is heavily opinionated (global config
> object, anyone?) and that's an issue for a lot of people. I will also
> point out that the only oslo.* dependency that oslo.config has is
> oslo.i18n, which itself has no other oslo dependencies, so there's not
> much barrier to entry to using it standalone today.
>

oslo.config currently pulls in 16 dependencies to a clean venv, including
oslo.18n, Babel (why?) and requests (WHY?).


>
> I would not inflict oslo.service on anyone I liked. :-P
>

So, you don't like us? :-P


>
> Seriously though, I would advocate for using cotyledon if you're looking
> for a general purpose service library. It's not eventlet-based and
> provides a lot of the functionality of oslo.service, at least as I
> understand it. It was also written by an ex-Oslo contributor outside of
> OpenStack so maybe it's an interesting case study for this discussion. I
> don't know how much contribution it gets from other sources, but that
> would be good to look into.
>

Good to know, thanks!


>
> > 2) oslo.utils as a catch-all repository of utilities should IMO be
> > either moved to existing python projects or decomposed into small
> > generally reusable libraries (essentially, each sub-module could be a
> > library of its own). Same for oslo.concurrency.
>
> oslo.concurrency has already been decomposed into general purpose code
> (fasteners) and OpenStack-specific, at least for the most part. I'm sure
> the split isn't perfect, but it's not like we haven't recognized the
> need for better concurrency libraries in Python as a whole. Note that
> fasteners also lives outside Oslo in another ex-Osloers personal repo.
> Again, I'm not sure whether that was beneficial or not but it might be
> worth reaching out to Mehdi and Josh to see how they feel about it.
>

I *think* we mostly use oslo.concurrency for its execute() wrapper, which
seems like it could be a very useful library on its own (can I suggest
better-execute as a name?).


>
> I would probably -2 any attempt to split oslo.utils. You'd end up with a
> bunch of single file libraries and a metric ****-ton of administrative
> overhead. It's bad enough managing 40 some repos as it is. Also, that's
> another library with minimal cross-dependencies with the rest of Oslo
> (just oslo.i18n again), which was an intentional design decision to make
> it relatively painless to pull in.
>

I guess I have a personal dislike of libraries without a simple goal (I've
been also fighting with various "utils" modules inside Ironic - with only
limited luck).

I do suspect that at least some of oslo.utils contents could find a new
home, some maybe even in the stdlib. I also don't want us to end up in the
leafpad situation, on the other hand.


>
> > 3) I'm genuinely not sure why oslo.log and oslo.i18n exist and which
> > parts of their functionality cannot be moved upstream.
>
> oslo.log basically provides convenience functions for OpenStack
> services, which is kind of what the oslo.* libraries should do. It
> provides built-in support for things like context objects, which are
> fairly domain-specific and would be difficult to generalize. It also
> provides a common set of configuration options so each project doesn't
> have to write their own. We don't need 20 different ways to enable debug
> logging. :-)
>
> oslo.i18n is mostly for lazy translation, which apparently is a thing
> people still use even though the company pushing for it in the first
> place no longer cares. We've also had calls to remove it completely
> because it's finicky and tends to break things if the consuming projects
> don't follow the best practices with translated strings. So it's in a
> weird limbo state.
>

May I join these calls please? :) Will I break Zanata (assuming anybody
still translates ironic projects) if I switch to the upstream gettext?


>
> I did talk with JP in Shanghai about possibly making it optional because
> it pulls in a fair amount of translation files which can bloat minimal
> containers. I looked into it briefly and I think it would be possible,
> although I don't remember a lot of details because nobody was really
> pushing for it anymore so it's hard to justify spending a bunch of time
> on it.
>

I'd be curious to hear more.

Dmitry


>
> TLDR: I think Oslo provides value both in and out of OpenStack
> (shocking, I know!). I'm sure the separation isn't perfect, but what is?
>
> There are some projects that have been split out of it that might be
> interesting case studies for this discussion if anyone wants to follow
> up. Not it. ;-)
>
> -Ben
>
>
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