RE: Dutch IJ character

Thomas Milo wrote:
> To be honest, the last time I saw key marked AltGr was on the 
> old IBM kbd for Dutch.

I thought all keyboards had an AltGr key. It's normally the key immediately
to the right of the space bar. From what you say below, I guess that it may
be labelled differently on US and other non-European keyboards (just "Alt",
as the left-hand key?).

> What is it? What does Gr stand for?

I have always interpreted "AltGr" as "ALTernate GRaphic (character)".

> The second Alt key to the right of the space bar? Hm. Didn't know
> about it. Nor did my informants. RightAlt+c produces © -
> pretty useless. [...]

Well, "useless"... On my keyboard (Spanish, but the Italian one is quite
similar), without an AltGr key I could not program in C or even simply send
e-mails or change directory, as I wouldn't be able to type, e.g.:

        \ | @ # [ ] { }

> > A dead-key sequence where "," (comma) is the first character sounds
> > difficult to use.  Since most commas in ordinary text are 
> followed by a
> > space, the typist would have to type TWO spaces after the 
> comma much of
> > the time to avoid accidental composition.  Likewise, "I" as 
> a dead key
> > would cause an annoying delay after every "I" is typed.  
> And asking the
> > major vendors to completely overhaul the standard dead-key 
> mechanism to
> > use backspace-and-replace seems like, as Thomas might say, a
> > non-starter.
> 
> Hm. That _is_ disappointing.   It used to work flawlessly 
> with the Brazilian KBD in DOS 5 (at the time the best way
> to handle Dutch)
> 
> > BTW, this thread marks the first time I've ever heard that 
> Ç/ç is used
> > in Dutch.  Michael Everson doesn't list it in his 
> "Alphabets of Europe."
> 
> Hahahaha. As long as the Dutch Empire clings on to
> Curac(how-do-I-type-a-cedilla-where is AltGr)ao, we need it. 
> As a fac(same
> problem)ade or for in a salade nic(again)oise. One needs to 
> realize that
> Dutch is loaded with French borrowings and in spite of all 
> the educational
> budget cuts, a large number of people here know French, 
> German and English
> (the classic sorting order) and expect it to be able to mix 
> it freely into
> their texts without having to swap to cumbersome 
> AZERTY-MAZERTY keyboards.
> That a is feature of Dutch use that sets it apart from use by native
> speakers of English, German and French (the modern sorting order).
> 
> > > Here in the NL popular publications advise Dutch users to 
> avoid using
> > > the Dutch kbd, and to select Locale= Dutch and 
> KBD=US-International
> > > instead to avoid the hardware mismatch (real or 
> imaginary) associated
> > > with the Dutch Kbd.
> >
> > You mean that because the Dutch use American hardware, the standard
> > Dutch keyboard driver (which has an @-sign on key E00 and a 
> slash on key
> > E11) doesn't match the keycaps?  Fine, then there's nothing 
> wrong with
> > the idea of creating a new Dutch national keyboard layout.
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> BTW, the industry is so used to the ignorance of the Dutch 
> public in this
> respect, that a major supplier like Sony can get away here 
> with selling
> VAIO's with UK keyboards. People set it up as 
> US-International and memorise
> the swapped keys or put letter stickers on them.
> 
> > I'd still like to know what key on Dutch typewriters was 
> assigned to the
> > IJ digraph.  If the answer is "none, they just type I and J," then
> > everything can still be accomplished in the computer age without the
> > precomposed digraph.
> 
> Gerard Unger (http://www.myfonts.com/person/unger/gerard/) 
> told me he still
> has one. From experience I know it can be placed up-side down 
>  on a scanner.
> Would you do that for us, Gerard?
> 
> > > I am not fully convinced IJ should be treated as digraph. 
> The glitch
> > > is that it capitalizes as a whole, and that older users 
> try to emulate
> > > it with Y. And, it cannot be broken apart so that ICE CREAM on a
> > > corner shop is
> > >
> > > IJ
> > > S
> > >
> > > never
> > >
> > > I
> > > J
> > > S
> > >
> > > And, the telephone directories put IJ and Y in the same sorting
> > > position.
> >
> > All of this can be accomplished with appropriate locale-dependent
> > settings instead of character encoding.  (Sorry for using 
> the L word.)
> 
> That would be great! The ideal solution would be one that 
> enables the Dutch
> user to handle Dutch, French, German and English 
> side-by-side. This is where
> the IJ issue pops up again - and this time as an objection to turn any
> sequence of I+J into IJ automatically...
> 
> t
> 
> 
>