RE: Waterfall and Dr. Winston Royce: msg#00025 programming.scrum.general

Paul,
Let the group know where you're located and maybe someone can come in and
help you, such as give a presentation, talk throught the benefits and
implementation details, minimize the disruption. For instance, management
reporting. Absolutely a difficult item to tackle. I usually recommend that
existing management reporting be kept totally intact, overhead and all, and
that Scrum reporting be added to it. During review meetings, review the
"real" progress on the Scrum reports. Eventually, management gets
comfortable with these reports AND the actual progress demonstrated at the
Sprint reviews. But this is a "win them over" not "kill them with how right
I am" approach. Management is threatened enough by ScrumMaster and them
"helping" the teams rather than telling the teams what to do. And then we
turn them out of their offices and turn the office into a team design room.
Wow! That's difficult change!
Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul [mailto:horked_noodle@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 7:11 PM
To: scrumdevelopment@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Waterfall and Dr. Winston Royce

Well, I plan to attempt it. I'll definatly need help
from you guys. I do work for a fortune 500 company.
Our ways are bad for the new economy.
My last position there the manager had a waterfall
dream, and just kept pushing more documenting and more
docmenting until I got fed up and left. There had to
be documentation for HTML web pages. I really like
the point of documentation as a tool for the team to
do it's work, and nothing more. But the QA dept.
wanted to put them in nice binders on the shelf so
that any time a program was changed, the corresponding
documentation would also need changed and refiled in
the binders. After pulling out most of my hair, I had
to leave the department.

I think agile is the way and I am aiming at using it
or being fired.

-- Paul

--- "David J. Anderson" <netherby_uk@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> Still kidding for a moment - 1000 pages for a $23MM
> project would still be OK.
>
> Now to deal with the real beast of Waterfall and why
> it remains popular.
>
> I think it is to do with two things - a tangible way
> to declare progress - and related to this a way for
> accounts to show added value - some countries allow
> the capitalization of development work in their
> standard and acceptable accounting practices.
>
> The 2nd one creates a macro problem for managers -
> they can have financial constraints or controls
> imposed which make Waterfall optimal for solving the
> problem of meeting their numbers. This would be hard
> to overcome - maybe impossible in a big company -
> Fortune 500.
>
> The first one is really to do with how acceptable
> the
> management finds reporting methods. I think that
> getting out of the waterfall model can be overcome
> with learning. For example, if in Scrum you could
> build consensus that reporting on the burn down
> chart
> of tasks for a project (or as Ken does in the book)
> report the hours remaining then this may be
> acceptable.
>
> It occurs to me that the hours remaining against the
> hours spent may be a suitable solution to the
> financial problem too.
>
> Developers get asked to fill out timesheets becuase
> of
> management accounting methods such as Activity Based
> Costing. If Scrum's time remaining (and time spent)
> charts were enough for management then the Waterfall
> thinking would be broken.
>
> In my experience, getting people to buy-off on new
> ways of reporting progress is very hard - very hard
> indeed.
>
> David
>
>
> --- Paul <horked_noodle@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> <HR>
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> Kidding aside, what is the real take on the 1000
> page 
> spec? 
> Dr. Royce said a 1000 page spec is appropriate
> and 
> David said it's reasonable, but isn't this
> totally 
> wrong approach to agile? 
> Why spec so much? 
> I loathe the waterfall methodology.  We have
> one 
> manager trying to push it at my company.  He's
> winning 
> the battle. 
>  
> --- Ken Schwaber <ken.schwaber@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote: 
> > Great. Where do I apply? 
> > Ken 
> > 
> > -----Original Message----- 
> > From: Mike Cohn 
> > [mailto:mike@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 5:54 PM 
> > To: scrumdevelopment@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Waterfall and
> Dr. 
> > Winston Royce 
> > 
> > 
> > According to 
> > 
> <a
>
href="http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/research/data/us/calc/";>http://woodrow.
mpls.frb.fed.us/research/data/us/calc/</a> 
> > 
> > $5 million in 1970 is $23M today 
> > and 
> > Ken should be making $55,515 a year. 
> > 
> > --Mike 
> > 
> > -----Original Message----- 
> > From: Ken Schwaber
> [mailto:ken.schwaber@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:18 PM 
> > To: scrumdevelopment@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Waterfall and
> Dr. 
> > Winston Royce 
> > 
> > Let's see. In 1970 I was being paid $12,000 a
> year 
> > by the University of 
> > Chicago. At the same markup (factor of 30), I
> should 
> > be making $360,000 
> > per 
> > year. Who wants to contribute to the
> cause?? 
> > Ken 
> > 
> > -----Original Message----- 
> > From: David J. Anderson 
> > [mailto:netherby_uk@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 5:12 PM 
> > To: scrumdevelopment@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Waterfall and
> Dr. 
> > Winston Royce 
> > 
> > 
> > What would $5MM be in today's money? My guess
> is 
> > around $150MM. 
> > 
> > I'd say a 1000 page specification for a
> $150MM 
> > project 
> > would be decidedly agile. 
> > 
> > David 
> > -- 
> > David Anderson 
> > <a
>
href="http://www.uidesign.net/";>http://www.uidesign.net/</a> 
> > The Webzine for Interaction Designers 
> > 
> > --- "Ken Schwaber
> <ken.schwaber@xxxxxxxxxxx>" 
> > <ken.schwaber@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
> > 
> > Documentation - Dr. Royce, "My own view is
> quite a 
> > lot...the first 
> > rule of managing software development is
> ruthless 
> > enforcement of 
> > documentation requirements ... Management
> of 
> > software 
> > is simply 
> > impossible without a very high degree of 
> > documentation." Dr. Royce 
> > indicates that a 1000 page spec document is 
> > appropriate for a $5m 
> > project, mostly because "a verbal record
> is
> too 
> > intangible." 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
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=== message truncated ===

=====
==Paul

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