RE: Waterfall and Dr. Winston Royce: msg#00024 programming.scrum.general

Well, I plan to attempt it. I'll definatly need help
from you guys. I do work for a fortune 500 company.
Our ways are bad for the new economy.
My last position there the manager had a waterfall
dream, and just kept pushing more documenting and more
docmenting until I got fed up and left. There had to
be documentation for HTML web pages. I really like
the point of documentation as a tool for the team to
do it's work, and nothing more. But the QA dept.
wanted to put them in nice binders on the shelf so
that any time a program was changed, the corresponding
documentation would also need changed and refiled in
the binders. After pulling out most of my hair, I had
to leave the department.

I think agile is the way and I am aiming at using it
or being fired.

-- Paul

--- "David J. Anderson" <netherby_uk@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> Still kidding for a moment - 1000 pages for a $23MM
> project would still be OK.
>
> Now to deal with the real beast of Waterfall and why
> it remains popular.
>
> I think it is to do with two things - a tangible way
> to declare progress - and related to this a way for
> accounts to show added value - some countries allow
> the capitalization of development work in their
> standard and acceptable accounting practices.
>
> The 2nd one creates a macro problem for managers -
> they can have financial constraints or controls
> imposed which make Waterfall optimal for solving the
> problem of meeting their numbers. This would be hard
> to overcome - maybe impossible in a big company -
> Fortune 500.
>
> The first one is really to do with how acceptable
> the
> management finds reporting methods. I think that
> getting out of the waterfall model can be overcome
> with learning. For example, if in Scrum you could
> build consensus that reporting on the burn down
> chart
> of tasks for a project (or as Ken does in the book)
> report the hours remaining then this may be
> acceptable.
>
> It occurs to me that the hours remaining against the
> hours spent may be a suitable solution to the
> financial problem too.
>
> Developers get asked to fill out timesheets becuase
> of
> management accounting methods such as Activity Based
> Costing. If Scrum's time remaining (and time spent)
> charts were enough for management then the Waterfall
> thinking would be broken.
>
> In my experience, getting people to buy-off on new
> ways of reporting progress is very hard - very hard
> indeed.
>
> David
>
>
> --- Paul <horked_noodle@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> <HR>
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> Kidding aside, what is the real take on the 1000
> page 
> spec? 
> Dr. Royce said a 1000 page spec is appropriate
> and 
> David said it's reasonable, but isn't this
> totally 
> wrong approach to agile? 
> Why spec so much? 
> I loathe the waterfall methodology.  We have
> one 
> manager trying to push it at my company.  He's
> winning 
> the battle. 
>  
> --- Ken Schwaber <ken.schwaber@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote: 
> > Great. Where do I apply? 
> > Ken 
> > 
> > -----Original Message----- 
> > From: Mike Cohn 
> > [mailto:mike@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 5:54 PM 
> > To: scrumdevelopment@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Waterfall and
> Dr. 
> > Winston Royce 
> > 
> > 
> > According to 
> > 
> <a
>
href="http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/research/data/us/calc/";>http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/research/data/us/calc/</a> 
> > 
> > $5 million in 1970 is $23M today 
> > and 
> > Ken should be making $55,515 a year. 
> > 
> > --Mike 
> > 
> > -----Original Message----- 
> > From: Ken Schwaber
> [mailto:ken.schwaber@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:18 PM 
> > To: scrumdevelopment@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Waterfall and
> Dr. 
> > Winston Royce 
> > 
> > Let's see. In 1970 I was being paid $12,000 a
> year 
> > by the University of 
> > Chicago. At the same markup (factor of 30), I
> should 
> > be making $360,000 
> > per 
> > year. Who wants to contribute to the
> cause?? 
> > Ken 
> > 
> > -----Original Message----- 
> > From: David J. Anderson 
> > [mailto:netherby_uk@xxxxxxxxxxx] 
> > Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 5:12 PM 
> > To: scrumdevelopment@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Waterfall and
> Dr. 
> > Winston Royce 
> > 
> > 
> > What would $5MM be in today's money? My guess
> is 
> > around $150MM. 
> > 
> > I'd say a 1000 page specification for a
> $150MM 
> > project 
> > would be decidedly agile. 
> > 
> > David 
> > -- 
> > David Anderson 
> > <a
>
href="http://www.uidesign.net/";>http://www.uidesign.net/</a> 
> > The Webzine for Interaction Designers 
> > 
> > --- "Ken Schwaber
> <ken.schwaber@xxxxxxxxxxx>" 
> > <ken.schwaber@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
> > 
> > Documentation - Dr. Royce, "My own view is
> quite a 
> > lot...the first 
> > rule of managing software development is
> ruthless 
> > enforcement of 
> > documentation requirements ... Management
> of 
> > software 
> > is simply 
> > impossible without a very high degree of 
> > documentation." Dr. Royce 
> > indicates that a 1000 page spec document is 
> > appropriate for a $5m 
> > project, mostly because "a verbal record
> is
> too 
> > intangible." 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
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=== message truncated ===

=====
==Paul

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