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Subject: Re: User requirements - was Joel on Big Up Front Design in Software - msg#00114List: programming.language-of-the-yearLet's turn it around. What if we knew we could never get good/accurate/complete/... requirements from users up front? I mean really never and that this was fully accepted. How would that change the whole Agile vs. BDUF debate? How much would it change the whole industry? The reason I ask is that other industries can't seem to do it either, and seem to be in the awkward position where rework due to to design incompletion is guaranteed to be hugely expensive because of how the end products manifest themselves as physical artefacts. Ex, architecture, automotive design, electronic design, aircraft design... hence there is a need in those industries to take out various forms of protections, including indemnification and careful interpretation of contracts and requirements. We seem to be the only industry *without* the cost issue of physical manifestations. Could we take that to our advantage? Should we? cheers Bill David Lanouette wrote: > Change of topic. > > This thread got me thinking again about a question I've had for a long > time. So, I'll throw it out to the group. > > What if we could get good/accurate/complete/... requirements from users > up front? How would that change the whole Agile vs. BDUF debate? How > much would it change the whole industry? > > The reason I ask is that I other industries can do it. Ex, > architecture, automotive design, electronic design, aircraft design... > > Yes, I know that software is unique, extremely complex and very > difficult to "envision" by the end user, but we aren't the only ones > with those issues. It seems to me that it stems mostly from the fact > that the industry is so immature. > > Could we ever get there? Should we ever get there? > > Any thoughts? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> <font face=arial size=-1><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12hib8c7t/M=362131.6882499.7825260.1510227/D=groups/S=1705007207:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1124484666/A=2889191/R=0/SIG=10r90krvo/*http://www.thebeehive.org ">Get Bzzzy! (real tools to help you find a job) Welcome to the Sweet Life - brought to you by One Economy</a>.</font> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pragprog/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: pragprog-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Thread at a glance:
Previous Message by Date: click to view message previewRe: User requirements - was Joel on Big Up Front Design in SoftwareBTW, I also have a page in my blogki where I like to collect things related to this topic - so there's some additional references in here (including a Joel one, ironically) http://www.clabs.org/blogki/blogki.cgi?page=/ComputersAndTechnology/ConstructionAnalogy -- Chris http://clabs.org/blogki ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> <font face=arial size=-1><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12h3j3gvk/M=362131.6882499.7825260.1510227/D=groups/S=1705007207:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1124484427/A=2889191/R=0/SIG=10r90krvo/*http://www.thebeehive.org ">Get Bzzzy! (real tools to help you find a job) Welcome to the Sweet Life - brought to you by One Economy</a>.</font> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pragprog/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: pragprog-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Next Message by Date: click to view message previewRe: User requirements - was Joel on Big Up Front Design in SoftwareOn Aug 19, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Chris Morris wrote: > Chris Gehlker wrote: > > >I believe the Corps > >of Engineers's Institute for Water Resources did a study which showed > >that in fewer than 5% of the cases where construction of a project > >was actually completed did the result resemble what was was assumed > >in the initial Reconnaissance Report. I well remember a project at > >Hoover Dam where what started out as a simple generator rewind ended > >up with the construction of a major visitor's center and parking > >structure. > > > > > You wouldn't happen to have links to either of these studies? The IWR study was published before they started putting their research on line. I can't even find an index to their older stuff on their site. As for Hoover Dam, the whole up-rating program became an issue in some lawsuits involving the Secretary of Energy and several states and municipalities over how the power from Hoover would be allocated and the rates set. If you go to the main Federal Register page and search on Hoover Dam you can dig out the history of the modern construction program starting with the recognition of the need to rewind the generators in the late 80s. -- Conscience is thoroughly well-bred and soon leaves off talking to those who do not wish to hear it. -Samuel Butler, writer (1835-1902) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> <font face=arial size=-1><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12h5h1l9t/M=362131.6882499.7825260.1510227/D=groups/S=1705007207:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1124485152/A=2889191/R=0/SIG=10r90krvo/*http://www.thebeehive.org ">Get Bzzzy! (real tools to help you find a job) Welcome to the Sweet Life - brought to you by One Economy</a>.</font> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pragprog/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: pragprog-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Previous Message by Thread: click to view message previewRe: User requirements - was Joel on Big Up Front Design in SoftwareOn 8/19/05, David Lanouette <David.Lanouette-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: What if we could get good/accurate/complete/... requirements from users up front? How would that change the whole Agile vs. BDUF debate? How much would it change the whole industry? Not at all, I believe. Even if the user completely and accurately describes what he wants, once he sees what gets built, he learns from that and changes his desires and the requirements. It's a feedback loop. Once the user sees something new, he immediately starts playing "what if"---What if I could skip this step? What if the screen were blue instead of green? What if we could see the number of widgets available before placing the order? Agile development embraces that feedback loop; waterfall development (requirements -> design -> development) ignores it. Jim-- Jim Menard, jim.menard-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxhttp://www.io.com/~jimm Next Message by Thread: click to view message previewTaking a pragmatic view of http://www.clientcopia.com/A friend sent this to me. It is a website that contains quotes from clients to the programmers or developers. From my point of view, it is interesting because although I laugh at the customers, I am equally laughing at the developers complaining about things they should have a control over. It exemplifies non-pragmatic approaches to design. Take a look and I am sure that you will agree there is something on both sides to laugh at: http://www.clientcopia.com Here is a sample of one that had me scratching my head on.... Quote: "BEN. OH MY GOD. i LOVE the website you designed for us! it's AB-SOLUTE-LY brilliant and it looks FAAAABULOUS!.. but can i suggest a minor change? you think we could change the colors of the graphics? maybe make them more lighter? and maybe put the logo on the left side instead of the right? and the color of the text is perfect but we need it to be a little bit darker. is that easy to do?" " ... " My Response: -It seems that with CSS, tiles, and other technologies the answer should be yes. Making the graphics lighter would take time...I would estimate 8 hours with buffer time to do all of that. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> <font face=arial size=-1><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12h07tt28/M=362329.6886308.7839368.1510227/D=groups/S=1705007207:TM/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1124493386/A=2894321/R=0/SIG=11dvsfulr/*http://youthnoise.com/page.php?page_id=1992 ">Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back!</a>.</font> --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pragprog/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: pragprog-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Loading Comments...
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