Subject: Agile education and pragmatic schooling - msg#00082

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Re: Manifesto for Agile Software Maintenance

--- "Ged Byrne" <gedb-JAuqNdr32XA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > I think that there should be a Manifesto for Agile Software > Maintenance. This could offer a practical route into large > organisations for agile methods. You've come to the right place. Dave Thomas wrote: "All programming is maintenance programming, because you are rarely writing original code." See "Orthogonality and the DRY Principle" here: http://www.artima.com/intv/dry.html I also prefer maintenance programming over new development. Maintenance programming lets you focus on solving specific problems and refactoring/rewriting code that is at least somewhat understood by the user. New development projects almost always get bogged down in the requirements - specification - meeting loop, or in arguments within the team about exception hierarchies and whether triggers or evil or not, or something like that. Explaining and deciding usability or technical issues with a non-technical client gets tedious very fast. But when you're fixing something they are already dependent on, and you can deliver results, they are always pleased, and they usually don't care to know the details. And I've yet to come across a non-trivial software application (including my own) that I can't improve in some way that a client will find valuable. More mercenary reasons for my preference are that I'm usually left alone to fix or maintain code, and as long as the code gets more stable and useful over time the customer is happy. And it's much easier to charge by the hour when you're maintaining code someone else wrote. As a consultant/contractor clients usually want a fixed-fee bid for new projects, but have no problem with open-ended hourly work to fix their deployed applications. Asking a new client to risk a couple of thousand dollars at $100/hr while you fix a broken database or slow application is a lot safer for both parties than a big expensive new development project. I have had done quite a few big projects that started out as bug fixes or performance improvement, or upgrades to new hardware. The clients get ridiculous bids for a complete replacement, which they can't afford, so they instead decide to work on what they have. Instead of getting the $10,000 project up front I get it in regular installments over time. I think agile techniques fit into maintenance work nicely, and the techniques are an easier sell to a client looking for pain relief. Selling a client on source code control is much easier after they've experienced the pain of not having a system in place, for example. And there's a lot more work out there if you're willing to wade through the muck. Greg Jorgensen PDXperts LLC - Portland, Oregon USA ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pragprog/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: pragprog-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Re: Agile education and pragmatic schooling

On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 23:56 +0000, Greg Jorgensen wrote: > Are there a lot of programmers who homeschool their kids? I'm not sure. I know of one father who works as a programmer who has unschooled their son, now a programmer as well, however: > I think of homeschooling as an agile approach to education. I didn't care for > school and > dropped out of college to work f/t as a programmer. I don't know if there's > any other > professional career where you find as many self-educated people as > programming. That's a sure thing. It is agile. I, myself, am an unschooler, self- educated in just about everything. I know a good portion of the unschooling community is technically minded -- and not just of technically employed parents. The things linking music, programming, the use of chopsticks and in general what's become known as "Geeking" in our community of unschoolers, that is to learn things deeply, understanding them at the foundation (Grok, if you will, and the process of getting there) are very important to a huge number of us. > I wonder if programmers are more likely to homeschool their kids than > non-programmers. > I manage the web site for the Greater Portland Homeschoolers, and my wife and > I have > been involved with the local homeschooling community for eight years. Quite a > few > members are technical professionals. I don't know if that's because computer > nerds are > more likely to homeschool their kids, or if it's because in Portland a lot of > the good-paying > jobs are high-tech (which enables one parent to not have to hold a job). I think that's some of each. There's also a disproportionate number of unschoolers in the west coast, and especially the northwest. Combine that with the same disproportion of technical jobs, and you can probably draw the same conclusions I hold. The homeschooling world is largely single-job families, mostly middle- class. Unschooling in particular, though, I think tends to be a bit more broad: Demographically, we come from more two-job homes, more struggling families trying to buck the system, and more artists where it's hard to pick out a single source of income. > Most of the homeschooling parents we know practice what is known as > unschooling, > which is a very unstructured approach that lets kids learn what they want at > their own > pace. As I write this my five-year-old son is sitting next to me playing > Pokemon on his > Game Boy and showing a lot of interest in learning to read a little better so > he can > understand the game. That's wonderful! I can attest personally to how unschooling works for myself and many friends, many of whom are programmers, thoughtful geeks, and writers. If anyone here would like more information, or to just chat with some unschooled kids and adults about education, programming, or anything else that strikes your fancy, feel free to drop by our IRC space, channel #nbtsc on the server castle.nbtsc.org. Good evening to you all, Aredridel ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pragprog/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: pragprog-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Re: Re: Looking for article on programmer culture

On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 11:23:19AM -0600, Gregg Irwin wrote: > Hi Greg, > > GJ> Homeschooling Parent and Nerd > > Same here! :) Normally I avoid "me too" posts, but this is just too funny. I'll make it a third Greg(g) claiming that description! And we're all pragmatic to boot! -Greg Vaughn http://gigavolt.net/blog ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pragprog/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: pragprog-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Re: Agile education and pragmatic schooling

On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 23:56 +0000, Greg Jorgensen wrote: > Are there a lot of programmers who homeschool their kids? I'm not sure. I know of one father who works as a programmer who has unschooled their son, now a programmer as well, however: > I think of homeschooling as an agile approach to education. I didn't care for > school and > dropped out of college to work f/t as a programmer. I don't know if there's > any other > professional career where you find as many self-educated people as > programming. That's a sure thing. It is agile. I, myself, am an unschooler, self- educated in just about everything. I know a good portion of the unschooling community is technically minded -- and not just of technically employed parents. The things linking music, programming, the use of chopsticks and in general what's become known as "Geeking" in our community of unschoolers, that is to learn things deeply, understanding them at the foundation (Grok, if you will, and the process of getting there) are very important to a huge number of us. > I wonder if programmers are more likely to homeschool their kids than > non-programmers. > I manage the web site for the Greater Portland Homeschoolers, and my wife and > I have > been involved with the local homeschooling community for eight years. Quite a > few > members are technical professionals. I don't know if that's because computer > nerds are > more likely to homeschool their kids, or if it's because in Portland a lot of > the good-paying > jobs are high-tech (which enables one parent to not have to hold a job). I think that's some of each. There's also a disproportionate number of unschoolers in the west coast, and especially the northwest. Combine that with the same disproportion of technical jobs, and you can probably draw the same conclusions I hold. The homeschooling world is largely single-job families, mostly middle- class. Unschooling in particular, though, I think tends to be a bit more broad: Demographically, we come from more two-job homes, more struggling families trying to buck the system, and more artists where it's hard to pick out a single source of income. > Most of the homeschooling parents we know practice what is known as > unschooling, > which is a very unstructured approach that lets kids learn what they want at > their own > pace. As I write this my five-year-old son is sitting next to me playing > Pokemon on his > Game Boy and showing a lot of interest in learning to read a little better so > he can > understand the game. That's wonderful! I can attest personally to how unschooling works for myself and many friends, many of whom are programmers, thoughtful geeks, and writers. If anyone here would like more information, or to just chat with some unschooled kids and adults about education, programming, or anything else that strikes your fancy, feel free to drop by our IRC space, channel #nbtsc on the server castle.nbtsc.org. Good evening to you all, Aredridel ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/nhFolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pragprog/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: pragprog-unsubscribe-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/