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5 new messages in 4 topics - digest: msg#00000politics.parties.india.bharatudaymission
BM_discussion http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion?hl=en BM_discussion-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Today's topics: * Judiciary is part of same system - 1 messages, 1 author http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/3d527489aaac798c?hl=en * Can unhealhty people revive whole India and contribute effectively to the rise of a great nation? - 1 messages, 1 author http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/03a7e33e2597395b?hl=en * Gandhi, Marx etc :: Social Workings - 2 messages, 2 authors http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/a71dd43c54359019?hl=en * Fwd: [YSC] Garibi hatao, eliminate the poor - 1 messages, 1 author http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/2f7529de380f11c2?hl=en ============================================================================== TOPIC: Judiciary is part of same system http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/3d527489aaac798c?hl=en ============================================================================== == 1 of 1 == Date: Wed, Oct 31 2007 2:34 am From: Rishikesh We understand that judiciary is part of the same system and it goes by prevalent economic practices. Here is one such example, where judiciary overturns itself. It also shows how the interpretation of rights changes. Source : Indian Express URL : http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/No-equal-pay-for-daily-wager-and-regular-employee-SC/234077/ No equal pay for daily wager and regular employee: SC Agencies Posted online: Tuesday , October 30, 2007 at 12:00:00 Updated: Tuesday , October 30, 2007 at 07:26:22 *New Delhi, October 30: * A daily wager cannot claim salary equal to that of a regular worker even if the two are discharging the 'same functions', the Supreme Court has ruled in a landmark judgement which supercedes its earlier, almost opposite, stand on the issue. The principle of equal pay for equal work will arise "only if there is complete and total identity between the two persons similarly situated so as to grant equal pay for equal work," a Bench of Justices A K Mathur and Markandeya Katju observed. Holding that its earlier view that if two persons were discharging same functions they were entitled to same wages was no longer applicable, the court said, "Even if a daily wage employee is discharging the same functions as a regular employee the authorities are not bound to grant equal pay to such a person." The court said the case of a regular employee and that of a daily wage worker was on a different footing as the former is always appointed through a selection process and his services are permanent. The apex court gave the observation while quashing an order of the Punjab and Haryana High Court which had affirmed a trial court order directing equal pay for some daily-wage tractor drivers on par with the regular drivers working for the Punjab government. The state government had challenged the lower court's direction by filing a petition in the apex court. ============================================================================== TOPIC: Can unhealhty people revive whole India and contribute effectively to the rise of a great nation? http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/03a7e33e2597395b?hl=en ============================================================================== == 1 of 1 == Date: Wed, Oct 31 2007 4:42 am From: "Vivek Umrao Glendenning" Respected Brother Ravi, Because you accept in your mail that you are not healthy thus I do not think that you should have written this philosophical mail. Gandhi did not give us independence as individual. It was collective effort including physically unhealthy people. Do you want to motivate me to leave BM by motivating indirectly? May be many members of BM are healthier than you but they can not write emails philosophically. In my view, many members have been working much more than you for society (if they feed polio drops or clean roads or etc). Why do you always try to dominate other members without doing anything? Try to be healthy in mind first yourself. Why do you want to justify your limitations, conditionings by manipulating words of Gandhi? love vivek From: Ravi Kant Pathak Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 1:15 PM To: bm_pittsburgh-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; bm_usa-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; BM NC mail ; BM_Riverside-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; bm_newjersey-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; BM_discussion@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; bm_gwalior-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; BM_futurefulltime@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; Krishna, Gopal Subject: [BM_discussion] Can unhealhty people revive whole India and contribute effectively to the rise of a great nation? Dear Brothers and Sisters, Vandemaatram! I am reaching you again with a question: "Can unhealhty people revive whole India and contribute effectively to the rise of a great nation?" When I raise such question, I must admit, I am unhealhty. At the same time I fully realize that I am on a great misison: Uday of Bharat (Rise of India). " It is impossible for unhealhty people to win swaraj [self-rule]. Therefore we should no longer be guilty of the neglect of the health of our people" - Mahatma Gandhi, 1940, Implication of constructive work. ... and we must not forget that 'morals are closely linked with health. A perfectly moral person alone can achieve perfect health'. Through internet thousands of people joined BM and many other like minded organization. However, most people, including me, I find are unhealthy; physically as well as spiritually. We have no moral right to join any such organization of high ideals as BM, if we are not committed to its ideals and works. The primary reason for a large number of lethargic human mass in BM is their poor health. For instance, most people in the BM do not maintain their body-discipline, live self-indulged lifestyle and most believe that purpose of their bodily existence is self-pleasure/comfort. We find it uncomfortable to check our consumption habits and self-pride attitudes. People with such a low consciousness possess no capacity to bring large scale changes in the massive and diverse country like India. This mail is not to dishearten a group or an individual but a humble reminder of the duty towards yourself; Self-purification. How many of consciously strive to overcome our own laziness and self-indulging tendencies and lust. I have not only experienced such habit within me, but also experimented on them. At many times, I have experinced a perfect health. and I am writing this based on my experiences only. when BM was initiated We envisioned of only few hundred whole hearted, selfless and disciplined soldiers in the misison. Today we are a junk of lethargic intellectuals. I strongly believe only merely through intellect one niether can achive a strong character nor can become a compassionate human being. But through self-restrained living and self-purification one can contribute efectively in every walk of life. BM expect atleast this from you. If you finf youself unfit to be in this great mission, you are humbly request to make yourself fit and contribute effectively to the nation building. Although I am not advocating any 'ism' or 'sect' or so called religion' in worldly sense, I strongly recommend YOGA to be adopted by all well wisher of humanity in genrla and India in particular. But This should not be the end, rather it is a beginning of new emergence. We all have to emerge from our embodied self to the Universal Self. and That is the path for India's rise. We must dream to return our villages and make them a prefered place to live in all respect. How many of you made serious attempt to overcome self-indulging attitude and contribute effectively in nation building? How many of you thought of contribute someway or the other; inferiority, insecurity and self-pride are killing Indian in every walk of life. Even in Mission like BM we are facing such a problems. NO one is forcing you to be in BM, but if you are here please maintian your dignity and do something. I seriously look forward to clean up the organization,not by the use of functionary authority, which in ignorance have been used in past for the same task, but simple moral force. If your conscience are clear of an eligible BM member pleaase come forward and contribute to the missionground work: Establishment of BM Centres on the ground. but remember, try hard to attain good health and to an extent attain perfect health. THIS IS TIME FOR PRAYER AND SELF-REFLECTION! jai hind! WITH TRUTH RAVI - Join the second Indian freedom struggle: http://bharatudaymission.org/ Ravi Kant Pathak Department of Civil and Structural Engineering Hong Kong Polytechnic University Hung Hom, Hong Kong phone: 852-34003961 (Office); 852-27199005 (Residence) 852-95712014 (if U dont find me at above numbers) coordinator-mYmh/0hSoedfBpw/PFCx40B+6BGkLq7r@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ................................................................................................................... Please visit our Annual Work Report, Articles and try to make a comment-- www.localgovernance.org/workreport001.html www.localgovernance.org/videos.html www.localgovernance.org/socialownershipintro.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------- www.localgovernance.org/family.html [ we work for SOCIAL DEMOCRACY, SOCIAL OWNERSHIP, SOCIAL ECONOMY, SOCIAL EDUCATION, SOCIAL THOUGHTS, TRIBAL SOCIETY, AGRO-INDUSTRIAL-ECONOMY and SOCIAL VALUES] ============================================================================== TOPIC: Gandhi, Marx etc :: Social Workings http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/a71dd43c54359019?hl=en ============================================================================== == 1 of 2 == Date: Wed, Oct 31 2007 10:41 pm From: "Abhijit K" BM's ideology is theoretically flawed. Thats what I meant. I can't debate on that in emails, sorry for that. In solidarity with the cause of people, Abhijit On 11/1/07, Gopal Krishna <gopalkrishna.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Abhijit Bhai: There is a difference between organization and ideology - > there is a difference between organization's tactical failure and ideology's > moral failure. > So, the failure of BM that u talked about in ur mail, is tactical, political > failure of organization and not ideology's moral failure. > > BM's ideology will survive as long as even one person can stake his all for > it. So, we should wait for few more years before we can say that BM's > ideology is a mistake/failure: who knows, the seeming darkness is harbinger > of future light. At least, I am quite hopeful and will stake my all for BM's > ideology in a "centralized-in-hands-of-fulltimers" type of > organization, which can serve the ideology without dilution/ridicule for a > very long period of time. > > Being the first person to join BM, i know what BM's real ideology was ( i > put it down now for my next centralized organization here - > http://gopalkrishna.mission.googlepages.com/CoreIdeology.doc > ) and also know, how little BM's members understood or felt true > commitment towards it and how when reminded about their lack of commitment, > they reacted as if ideology was a matter of view of one person, who started > the cause, and hence can be changed/modified, diluted/diverted with time by > members, who consider themselves "more mature/practical/evolved" - such is > the nature of human mind and its moral frailties . > > I assure all, in future there will be a rise for BM's ideology, possibly in > a new structure/organization, and this time, enough "political intelligence > and centralization in hands of fulltimers" will be employed to not allow any > chance for "drama of maturity/practicality even on ideology" . > > Centralize , centralize and centralize the organization in hands of those > rare few, who understands it fully and r fully devoted - the path of reform > is not guided by law of majority, who have third-class devotion and > third-class understanding of the cause, but by the law of few, the few who > can stake all for the sake of cause. That is the great political and > psychological lesson that I learnt after working in BM organization for 2.5 > years - and this is a very big and important lesson not only for pioneers of > this cause but for society also . > > ready for brickbats :) but will not respond to such critics who themselves > never understood BM's real ideology and never were humble enough to elevate > themselves up to it rather than using their petty power to drag/dilute/mock > the ideology . > > May God save every noble cause from pseudo-mature, worldly people. May all > pioneers of such cause, be politically intelligent enough to protect the > spirit of cause from pseudo-mature, worldly people. That's my only > soul-deep prayer. > > Thanks, > > Gopal > > > On 10/25/07, Abhijit K <abhijit13-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > wrote: > > Friends, > > > > I try to write as less emails as possible nowadays, but Vivek's enthusiasm > makes me write this one :p .. > > > > I would like to say that more or less, I agree with what Vivek has said > about the society, BUM and "us" .. the middle-upper-class-upper-caste > elite of this country (and outside too !) .... > > > > I was accused of being a > Marxist/Chinaist/something-like-that by somebody, in the > past.. and I did not understand it... may be because I never tried to > understand anything from its label.. As Vivek has said, the people's > movement has matured with its experiences all over the world.. and with the > writings of all the people that Vivek mentioned and .... more importantly > with the collective experience of the people who chose to work with masses. > Why do we try to label people and not listen to their thoughts on the issues > ? ... We are not competing here to better the society .. isn't it.. ? > > > > I joined BUM out of the passion to do something, and that passion still > continues.. but the understanding of the society and its problems and > possible solutions has changed quite a lot with my own small experiences, > writings of people and knowing the experiences of people who have given > their lives for the cause.. > > > > BUM (whatever that means) in the form when it was incepted, where it > started and the way it started, was a mistake... It was called a novel > experiment, but it was an experiment bound to fail and ... lets try to > digest it.. but.. it has failed... Most of the people on this email > (including me) have played their part in taking it to its conclusion... > It has brought a few sincere people together, and that is the good legacy I > believe, it leaves behind.. > > > > As Vivek has raised questions... " > > > > Why could we not oppose Times of India's Lead India Contest? We are > praising this contest by making silly logics. Why do we always think that > our common society is too weak or fool? > > Do we discuss all these things with concern with sincerity? > > Do we think that now USA wants to govern us directly? Can planted leaders > work for common society? > > " > > ... lets start questioning the "BASIC ASSUMPTIONS" about the society and > the system that we are living in ... > > > > We need to identify ourselves with the people and the people's movement.. > The sincere folks in BUM need to think-n-act more seriously now... > > > > Regards, > > Abhijit > > (in my capacity as a volunteer for the people's cause.. ) .. > > > > -- > > Abhijit Minakshi > > About my name: > www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt > > > > > > > > On 10/24/07, Vivek Umrao Glendenning < > > umraovivek-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Surendran Ji, > > > I did not reply your mail because I got that you are writing mail with > sincerity and out of reaction. I postponed to reply you. Today I have some > extra time thus I read your mail again peacefully and now am replying you. > > > --- > > > > > > First, about the story of ocean. > > > > > > At least the guy (use life jackets) will never be able to save lives. > Because he will not walk always with Life-Jackets, if he will see again any > guy in Ocean, then he will run to his house to collect his Life Jackets > (because his preference is to save his own life, he does not want to > sacrifice for others or with others). > > > > > > The other guy (who jumped immediately), if in his first chance, will not > die in ocean then he will always save lives. Because he has only two options > in his first chance. > > > Either he will die in ocean or He will save the life of person including > his own life. > > > Now if first thing happen, then no doubt he is a great guy that he > sacrificed his own life for others (similar to Bhagat Singh or Others). > > > If he saved the life, this means he came from ocean to the land with the > person, in this whole process he learnt swimming automatically, in the next > time he will go to ocean to save life with better confidence, and each time > he will be better and better and better. > > > It is alive learning process. > > > --- > > > I am not a Marxist or also not a Gandhian. Because you can not be a > Marxian or Gandhian or other ians, we always learn from others workings and > add our own alive experiences for next. It is chain of society movement. I > get many things good in Marx, Gandhi, Vivekanand, Tolstoy, Gorki, Khalil > Jibran, Rousseau, Machiavelli, Aristotle, and too many others. To work in > society is not an Essay writing or also not an Academic Seminar Place or a > Class Room for Particular Subject that can not talk about Gandhi, if you are > talking on Marx. > > > You can not work on society by making a plan based on in good > philosophy, you have to move on works with your own understanding of society > and human beings. The readings can support you but it is not sufficient. A > illiterate person can establish Ideal Social Models in Society and later his > working can be accepted as philosophy and many intellectual can get their > doctorates and post doctorates in world level universities based on his > works even he is totally illiterate on definitions of universities. > > > You wrote in your one mail that BM is working on plans, in my > understanding that you can not work with plans in Indian Society, may be you > can work with plans in Western Countries but in India you can not move with > plans. Indian society is a much mature society but Indian State is not > mature, because Indian State is following Western Countries Systems and > philosophies and definitions. We have accepted in our inside that USA is > mature, Western Countries are mature and also developed. If we start to > watch carefully the causes for this then we get that we pray for Violent > Powers and Materialistic Luxuries. > > > BM says that it wants to work to make India developed, here, what is > meaning of development? What is meaning of strong and powerful country? > > > It is very easy to understand that what BM mean when it uses these > words. BM follows definitions of USA or Western Countries and BM accepts USA > and Western Countries as Ideal. Why does BM commit blunder mistakes here? > Because BM was formed by IITians, and why IIT is illusion in Indian Urban > Middle Class? Because it is very easy to get jobs and financial securities > after IIT. > > > After 1956, we can evaluate contributions of IITs to common Indian > Society. IITs were formed for researches for social welfare with social > accountability. IITs are not formed by air, these are formed by common > people of India. Western Market needs cheap software workers and they can > get it from India very easy by giving some currency to Indians. Because > China was closed thus they could not get it from China, and now China has > started to open it, even China has comparatively strong economy than India, > China will provide software workers to western countries with more > respectful manner than India. > > > > > > If you will start to evaluate various indian systems, you will get > similar things.--- > > > > > > In Governance Systems- > > > Government Officers and Political Leaders were/are busy to get a chance > to go Western Countries on the Expenses of Common People, why? > > > They write in their very long documents that they are going learn from > other countries experiences for social development. Why do they not try to > explore solution with the own traditional knowledge and from the society? > Because we have habits of illusions and we do not respect qualities or > abilities of human beings, we prefer to give weights to Brands and this > tendency we got from colonial systems. > > > We already had a bad and borrowed Governance System and we preferred to > copy more and more things from Western Countries and later from USA. After > the so-called liberalization on 1992, situation became more worse and worse. > Only Elite and Upper Middle Classes became able to get Luxuries easily and > without hassles. Middle and Lower Middle Classes started to get a seat in > Upper Middle Class and this is going on under various cut-throat > competitions. > > > Can it be asked to officers and political leaders that what benefits > without sacrificing sovereignty of society and country, they got by > following blindly USA or Western Countries. > > > Why is it appreciable to go outside or to get job out side india? When > will we be able to remove our internal slavery? > > > how can mental slave governance systems work better for society? > > > > > > In NGOs Field- > > > In Indian NGOs, it is very bad habit that from their birth, they start > to seek and try for funds. They work for media reports and media > documentations to show proof to funding agencies to get money from them. NGO > try to get FCRA account that they can be able to get foreign currency from > International Funding Agencies. They try to call people from Western > Countries for Evaluation etc. > > > Would we like to evaluate our these internal slaveries? > > > > > > I know that only in one year, we have invested more than 10 Million Rs > only from the local society, even these areas are comparatively economically > poor. Actually, we do not want to the people or masses, we do not want to > walk with the last society even we always talk that we are working for last > society. We are ready to make efforts with Funding Agencies as like dogs but > we are not ready to go with society. We are ready to accept monitoring and > evaluation from the Funding Agencies but we are not ready for evaluation or > monitoring by common society. Why? because we can not make fool to the > society, we can make fool to Funding Agencies because funding agencies > evaluate by Articles, Documents, Papers and by Media. > > > > > > What I say- From where Funding Agencies (Govt or Non-Govt) get money, > obviously by common society then why should we not go directly to the > society? I know it is difficult to go in society than to go a small group. > > > > > > For example- Why does Dr Ravi not want to go directly in society? > Because he will be evaluated by his working, by his actual understandings of > society, if he will make mistakes society will throw out him without giving > a second chance. He will have to start from ZERO in society and may be > society will start to trust on him after two or three decades. Thus he uses > short cuts, he sends heavy philosophical mails and uses the illusions of USA > and IIT etc on a small but privileged group, he will be trusted easily and > will get lots of money by manipulating realities of under privileged > society. > > > He has no relation with Village Economy with his Ashram but because he > can access privileged group by the conditionings of illusions, he will get > money and again the last society will have to become toy of Dr Ravi's > experiments of Village Economy. If we will see in depth then from where Ravi > got understanding, from USA, he did not go to last society and he will work > for Village Economy and by getting money from outside especially from USA. > And why BM will trust him only because he was in USA. > > > Not only Ravi Kant Pathak, but hundreds of Ravi Kant have formed Ashrams > to establish ideals of Village Economy etc. But if there is an Ashram then > where will be village and if outer funds will be taken then where will be > Village Economy? > > > > > > I am not opposing Ravi Kant, if he thinks that he is thinking right then > he must go to form an Ashram as like hundreds of others but it will in > different Umbrella ie BM. But will it be a model of Village Economy? This is > the fundamental question. He can be a good teacher in IIT in his subject but > to be a faculty in IIT does not indicate perfection in all dimensions of the > society. If he wants to work for Village Economy then he should go to an > unknown village as unknown person and should start a work from zero, I can > bet, he will get understanding out of various projected conditionings. > > > > > > Economy, Leadership & Media- > > > To be equal as USA or Western Countries, we are interested in their life > style. Now in India every thing is moving around currency. There are lots of > Floating Currency in India, and it is only because of wrong policies by > policy planners. Now this Floating Currency is being floated within Indian > population. The fundamental character of this Floating Currency is- to take > a big round within mass and again return to the same pocket. Currency can > not be owned because it has no worth, but it creates a pseudo that it can be > owned. It is a big game of Floating Currency in India, MNCs are indulged to > increase corruption in Indian Governance System, how currency can be made > White Currency from Black Currency, only by method of Floating Currency. > > > > > > Every where we can see there are too many things, by which you can > become a Millionaire and we are in race of to be Millionaire as early as we > can. > > > We go in various TV Channel Programmes and give answers for silly > questions and become millionaires, and where we spend that > currency.........? How many people can access all these things? > > > Are all these thing not have impacts on our society/ our governance > system/ our economy etc? > > > Should we not try to analyze the causes of our mental slaveries? > > > > > > Why could we not oppose Times of India's Lead India Contest? We are > praising this contest by making silly logics. Why do we always think that > our common society is too weak or fool? > > > Do we discuss all these things with concern with sincerity? > > > Do we think that now USA wants to govern us directly? > > > Can planted leaders work for common society? Indirectly in India, a > projected move is going on that common or poor people should not run in > leadership because they are fool and can not understand high academic things > or do not have academic qualifications. Indirectly it is being projected > that villagers are fool and urban are mature because they have currency and > can access many luxuries. > > > Nowadays very strange mentality is moving that the ability to access > Luxury, Currency and Communication Systems are maturities and best things. > > > > > > BM members speak that they are working on plans. I am not able to > understand that how, without having direct access in depth of society, BM is > working on policies or plans? > > > > > > I have a lot to say but it will depend on replies. > > > --- > > > I hope, I did not commit crime by writing this email. > > > love > > > vivek > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Surendran B > > > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:37 AM > > > To: BM_discussion-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > Cc: Group BM General Body > > > Subject: [BM_discussion] Re: Fw: Brotherhood: Humanity: Social Working: > Priorities in individual life > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Mr.Vivek > > > > > > First of all I m pleasantly surprised by your decision to include me in > the intellectual class or that is what I understand from your mails. If > that is what you meant, I am obliged to tell you something in this regard. > I am not a scholar, nor an academic, I don't have an IIT/IIM degree or for > that matter I don't even belong to any of the premier educational > institutions. I am a software professional by qualification but I don't > work for any corporate (I am not intending too) and I do not have access to > really big money and I never had it too. On top of all I am not even half > your age. But I do know what our society is, where I stand in it, what it > needs and what my accountability to the society is etc, if not to your > levels and I strongly believe I would learn it with age and I am of the > opinion that yours' is not the only way to do it. > > > > > > Well if you feel there is no ideological base in this thread, I would > be happy to straighten it out. I would be very glad to explain my stand if > you can kindly point out where I have erred in logic. Since you have raised > this point of ideology and logic, I would also like to ask you something in > this regard, which I feel you would be more than willing to answer and clear > my doubts. In your replies, you have visualized BM as the elite class and > that you are willing to stand with the under privileged class. This, if I > am not wrong, is a Marxist stand. This being the case, are you working > towards social reconstruction or are you marching towards a revolution to > overthrow the elite class and put the subaltern class in a better position. > If this is not the case and if you are not a Marxist by ideology why > shouldn't I tell that you are pulling up ideologies at will to justify the > points you are willing to convey through that mail. How would you logically > justify Gandhian ideology and Marxism in a single mail? While you criticize > the mails for being philosophically loaded, intellectual, heavy but hollow > words etc, how would you explain this act of pulling Marxism out of no > where, into this issue, though you are not putting it in direct words? > > > > > > I presume that you had realized that people passing out of the > premier educational institutions are doing so only to get an identity and > security, long before this issue has come up. If that is the case, why did > you need those identities in your mail and you are yet to answer this > question of mine. Also, what made you change it? You also claim to have > the mass support. I guess that it was that section of masses which were > underprivileged that you were working for and so would you like to say that > these identities and securities were absolutely immaterial for your works? > > > > > > > > > When a person is dying in the ocean you may jump in it, even > if you don't know swimming, to save him. I would like to appreciate this > tendency of yours and I bet not many would have this guts. You may even > succeed in saving the person, even if you yourself don't know swimming. But > how many times can you do the same. If for instance, if you happen to drown > (God Forbid) during the second such incident, what is the plight of the > persons who would fall in the same ocean after that. We do not want one > such scenario to come up and our intentions are to develop such a situation > whereby nobody falls into the ocean again. We may be slow but sure to reach > there or at least initiate the process which would be continued by the > forthcoming generations. > > > > > > As you have chosen not to reply in this chain anymore, I > would request you to post me a reply to my inbox at least and I am eagerly > awaiting it. > > > > > > > > > On 10/20/07, Vivek Umrao Glendenning > > > <umraovivek-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Social Ownership > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:40 AM > > > > To: Dr. Kamal > > > > Cc: Bharat Shilpi ; > > > > ravikantpathak-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > > > > rupeshgarg20-Re5JQEeQqe8@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > ; drprahalathan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > amit.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; call2amritesh@xxxxxxxxx > ; abhijit13-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > rishikesh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > gopalkrishna.mission@xxxxxxxxx > ; ashok.sachan2006-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > pratibha.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > pratibha.mission-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > manoj.khurana-9Rhygfy4HAdiLUuM0BA3LQ@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > swadheenjain-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > komal-mWPh4kDnAzoBMX2RrO7yXg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > shoubhik.p-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > spnargund-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > aman.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > krishanu8-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > bhatvikram-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > adityagogate-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > bm_general_body-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > ashok_sachan2002-/E1597aS9LQxFYw1CcD5bw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > cbalajee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; > ankur.gattani-Re5JQEeQqe8@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > Subject: Brotherhood: Humanity: Social Working: Priorities in > individual life > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Dr. Saheb, > > > > Sorry i am not anyone's big brother. I am too younger in age. Sorry i > am a common man and like to stand with common man. I am hard in my daily > life also if there is anything against common man. Sorry only to get some > praising from Elite Group i can not leave my stand. > > > > > > > > I know very well the sensitivities of you all in various social issues > for last two years. I know it very well. Please go and evaluate the works > and stand of BM including Dr Ravi and off course your also. Still i have a > question, a moral question that when you should work, when society needs you > or based on your own life style calculations. How can you join your hand > with exploited society even you are also contributing very well in the > exploitation of society. Even these questions look stupid to you all, but if > you will be able to answer only then you will be able to work for society in > real sense. > > > > > > > > I can not stop you to think based on your own conditioning but i can > say one thing that you were wrong and are wrong in evaluation. > > > > May be you think in your mind that you are very right, but i know that > you or Dr ravi or others knew from your childhood that your society is > suffering and is being exploited but you opted to not work for society (you > had options, everyone has options), it was your own choice. Society was not > in priority from your childhood and still society is not in your priority > (then why should i take your evaluation or advices seriously? please do not > mind it). > > > > > > > > Suppose one person is dying in a ocean, what i will do, even i do not > know swim but i will throw myself in ocean. What you will do, you will go to > learn swimming and then you will go to arrange for two life jackets and > ropes then you will go in ocean, but till then......(you can think easily, > what you will get in ocean) and because you will go to learn in a swimming > institute and to get life jackets thus people will know that you are going > to save a life you will be praised and also will get media publicity and > also will get award (it is sure by this mean you will be a very big Social > Worker as Dr Reddy mentioned in his mail for Dr Ravi). In this story, i will > be feeling exactly same thing as that man, i will be also seeing my death > then me and that guy both will try our best to save our lives together and > we will also feel brotherhood and this feeling of brotherhood and i will be > able to understand live experience of his pain and it will not be > advertised. And in this incident i would have learnt swimming also and will > be moving to be a human being (not a social worker). You can make thousands > of logics but i know very well that there are millions of millions persons > are dying and numbers of life jackets are very less in number. > > > > > > > > I entered in social activism when i was less than 15 years in my age, > no body trusted me that i will continue in works but they have left and i am > still here, many persons have told me that i am rude thus i will not have > committed friends. > > > > But i know that i have lots of friends with commitment and have mass > support also, but i always face problems from Elite Class as i have been > facing in BM. I have decided that i will stand with non-privileged class. > > > > > > > > Except me who is criticizing Dr Ravi? No one? > > > > I know that Dr Ravi and you are not very honest this is why you do not > like my critics. If you will start to see with depth then you will get that > if i have ego then i have base for it and you have baseless ego. If i have > ego and non-polite guy then how mass is giving its support to me. I think > manners, attitudes, and other similar things are just for Elite Groups, > still these words need to be defined. Why should i follow definitions of > Elite Group? > > > > I wait your conditioned, biased and full of logics reply. > > > > > > > > You evaluate via Emails, i evaluate by actions and activities and live > behaviour. You guys are evaluating Dr Ravi because he writes good language > mail. I evaluate by his actions. You feel that he is walking in truth > because he writes long article on truth, i want to ask a simple question > that why he mobilize BM members to become General Secretary of BM even he > came just for few months in India (under which type of Truth and Gandhian > Ideology?). You trust him in his statement of Village Economy because his > dreams are very good in his writings but i want to know that by getting > money from outside and by having a luxurious Ashram how he will move towards > Village Economy (Economy means Currency?). You are saying that Dr Ravi ji is > polite and sensitive, only because he speaks very soft in language and in > mails. I think that he is an very violent man he mobilized BM members to > become General Secretary even he had no moral rights for it, he has not > practical experiences but he is mobilizing only by emails that he should be > granted 9 Million Rs in next few years. He opted to leave India and spent > his quality years in USA and will spend remain energetic (what is the base > of his sensitivity?). For you he can be very sensitive, i know that because > people are not very aware thus people will be with him because of his many > illusions. > > > > But my questions are only because he makes lots of too heavy > statements that he walks in truth, high moral values and in Gandhian > Ideology, he provides me opportunity to ask questions by his own statements > as i give opportunity to you to write negative mails to me. (i hope you will > try to understand my points above than your identity, high personality and > ego (not giant)). > > > > > > > > One more thing, i always reply, even i am criticized by you or others > because communication break is not a good thing. > > > > I went to Gwalior to meet BM members including but Dr Ravi had no time > to have talk with me, because he is perfect and has perfect understanding > thus he does not need any learning. It is because of Egos of IIT, Singapore, > $ and USA. I know some young BM members, they have much better understanding > of society than Dr Ravi but they have not back up of USA, $ or also not from > any Dr Reddy, Dr Kamal and others. > > > > > > > > Respected Dr. Akalpita Ji, > > > > India is in very critical state, it needs very hard TAPASYA, not less > than this. Society is not a joke or a toy for Elites that it should be > played as they want. BM member called me for one hour and spoke to me heavy > philosophical words on Flood with high sensitivity but till now those BM > members are not anywhere in action. People are interested to work on > T-Sunami but not in Flood, because T-Sunami was an international media > publicity also, but Flood is not a media publicity. In flood, there are more > continuous sufferings than one time T-Sunami. Have you visited damaged > Villages of Earth Quakes? Just after few months, anyone can go and can > evaluate the alive examples of manners and sensitivities of our Elite > Groups. > > > > > > > > I live with painful society directly. I am totally unable to > understand heavy but hollow wordings of ........ > > > > Sorry for my disabilities. > > > > love > > > > vivek > > > > > > > > Rest is on you. > > > > love > > > > vivek > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/20/07, Dr. Kamal > > > > <kksharma1-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vivek, > > > > > Even in your apologies (if you seriously meant them) gives a clear > indication of your giant ego and that you seem to have been hurt at the > attempt of people to just tell you to mend your ways and appreciate efforts > of others. > > > > > I wish God gives you enough time and patience to mend your publicly > non-defensible writings and be better known as a very sensible social worker > for the last society. I know you do not need any certificate for that but > whats the harm in appreciating and not looking down upon other's efforts, > you will only see there are more friends along your journey to support and > appreciate your efforts (I know you do not need them)...and in the process > we will be able to make 1+1=11 for the common society. Everybody will > benefit from that, even the last man, let the positive energies flow, even > in a child or an MNC millionaire. If you have the guts and leadership > ability to bring together such efforts on a common platform, that will be > your golden contribution to the society...I am not only talking about money > but efforts in kind. But till you are able to unite the efforts, you > seriously need to learn to be positive and shed your ego or else let others > do what they want and do not criticise them. Remember, every bit of > criticism can only lower the morale of people because it is coming from YOU > who is a veteran in this field. But being a big brother calls for more > maturity and understanding. > > > > > Hope your future glows more positive than today and let the common > man benefit. Take this positively, you may like to react as always but if > only you would be able to see the positive energy within... > > > > > Regards. > > > > > Dr.Kamal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/19/07, Vivek Umrao Glendenning > > > > > <umraovivek-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respected Dr Ravi Kant Ji, Dr Reddy Ji, Dr Kamal Ji, Surendran Ji, > Ranjan Ji and others > > > > > > > > > > > > I apologize for my all mails. I think, I should not reply in > mails. I have understood that BM is a great organization and all are great. > > > > > > Respected Brothers and Sisters, > > > > > > Please this time forgive me, I will try my best to not put my leg > in any discussion or matter. > > > > > > I hope I will be forgiven. > > > > > > Please Respected Dr Reddy Ji forgive me, Please Surendran Ji > forgive me, Please Dr Ravi Kant Pathak Ji forgive me, Please Dr Kamal > Kishore Sharma ji forgive me, Please Ranjan Ji forgive me, Please all BM > members forgive me. > > > > > > I promise, I will try to praise BM and its members by accepting > their greatness and completeness. > > > > > > > > > > > > love > > > > > > vivek > > > > > > ps- please forgive me, please accept my apology. please. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [BM_discussion] Re: Uniting and Rejunvenating BM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Vivek > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to entre in to any debate. But, now, I request you, stop > it. I agree with you regarding asking for money in such large quantities. I > donot find any logic. Money should come automatically when the work needs > it. First one has to start working. > > > > > > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > > > > Tum bahut muh fat ho. > > > > > > Kya tumhara yaha manana hai ki tapsya sirf jangal me ya himalay > jaisi pahdiyon me ki ja sakti hai? Kya nagarme rehene walonme koi tapswi > nahi banta? > > > > > > > > > > > > Kya manav jatiko sevake liye ghar bar chhodneki aawashyakta hai? > Ky koi apni jagaha, apne kartavyanko nibhate huve logonki seva karte hi > nahi? > > > > > > > > > > > > Maan liya ki tum is dishame sabse bahut hi aage ho. > > > > > > Mera manana hai ki tumne pichhle janam me chhoda huva adhura kaam > aage badhaya hai. Us vaqt jab kaam chalu kiya tha, tumhari umra kya hogi? > > > > > > > > > > > > Jo tum kah rahe ho, danke ki chot par tab kahana jab tumhari > santan ho. Jab tumhari santan ek kadam chalegi, usko bahut khushi hogi. Tab > kya tum kahoge ki isme kaunsi badi bat hai? Mai to marethon daud chuka hun. > > > > > > > > > > > > Koi bhi kisibhi umarme agar ek kadam bhi chale to uski sarahana > karna sikho. Tum bade ho hi. Dusron ko chhota dikhake kya tum aaur bade ban > jaoge? > > > > > > > > > > > > Vidya vinayena shobhate, yah sahi hai ki ya fir > > > > > > Vidya vinayena na shobhate? > > > > > > > > > > > > Ek bat pakki than lo. Ma kabhi kharidi nahi ja sakti. aaur, agar > bachheko sahi rasta na dikhaye to vaha maa nahi hoti. So mai to tumhe batati > hi rahungi. > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember > > > > > > they also serve who only stand and wait. > > > > > > > > > > > > abhi logon ne aage badhna shuru kiya hai. Jis disha me tum choti > par ho. unki sarahana karna sikho. Na ki unko chot panhuchao. Isase tumhare > vyaktimatvako char chand lag jayenge. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tum kitnebhi naraj ho jao. Mai jitni tumhari sarahana karti hun, > utnahi tumhe samzane ka haq rakhti hun. > > > > > > > > > > > > ek bar fir spashta kardun. tumhara batana galat nahi hai. Bataneka > tarika, dhang galat hai. > > > > > > > > > > > > Akalpita > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Gopal Krishna > > B. Tech Computer Science, IIT Kanpur > 1st year MS, UIUC > ph: 1-217-819-0966 > Homepage: http://gopalkrishna.mission.googlepages.com -- Abhijit Minakshi About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt == 2 of 2 == Date: Wed, Oct 31 2007 11:27 pm From: "Vivek Umrao Glendenning" I think Gopal is improving himself as a thinker. He wrote a nice mail. He has started to point out mistakes in process of formation of BM as an organization. May be Gopal will understand that I am a well-wisher of BM and in my core of heart, I want to see BM as an Ideal Social Organization. love vivek -------------------------------------------------- From: "Abhijit K" <abhijit13-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 11:11 AM To: "Gopal Krishna" <gopalkrishna.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Cc: <BM_discussion-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "rupesh garg" <rupeshgarg20-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "BM Kamal Kishore Sharma" <kksharma1-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Dr. Subba Reddy" <dr.subba-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Santosh Nargund" <spnargund-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Saurabh Bharat" <saurabh.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Gaurav Bharat" <gaurav.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Dr. Prahalathan KK" <prahalathan.kk-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Sundeep Jalan" <sundeep_jalan-/E1597aS9LQxFYw1CcD5bw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Rishikesh" <rishikesh.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Balajee Chandrasekaran" <cbalajee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Ravi Kant" <rpp-OM76b2Iv3yLQjUSlxSEPGw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [BM_discussion] Re: Gandhi, Marx etc :: Social Workings > > BM's ideology is theoretically flawed. Thats what I meant. I can't > debate on that in emails, sorry for that. > > In solidarity with the cause of people, > Abhijit > > On 11/1/07, Gopal Krishna > <gopalkrishna.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> Abhijit Bhai: There is a difference between organization and ideology - >> there is a difference between organization's tactical failure and >> ideology's >> moral failure. >> So, the failure of BM that u talked about in ur mail, is tactical, >> political >> failure of organization and not ideology's moral failure. >> >> BM's ideology will survive as long as even one person can stake his all >> for >> it. So, we should wait for few more years before we can say that BM's >> ideology is a mistake/failure: who knows, the seeming darkness is >> harbinger >> of future light. At least, I am quite hopeful and will stake my all for >> BM's >> ideology in a "centralized-in-hands-of-fulltimers" type of >> organization, which can serve the ideology without dilution/ridicule for >> a >> very long period of time. >> >> Being the first person to join BM, i know what BM's real ideology was ( i >> put it down now for my next centralized organization here - >> http://gopalkrishna.mission.googlepages.com/CoreIdeology.doc >> ) and also know, how little BM's members understood or felt true >> commitment towards it and how when reminded about their lack of >> commitment, >> they reacted as if ideology was a matter of view of one person, who >> started >> the cause, and hence can be changed/modified, diluted/diverted with time >> by >> members, who consider themselves "more mature/practical/evolved" - such >> is >> the nature of human mind and its moral frailties . >> >> I assure all, in future there will be a rise for BM's ideology, possibly >> in >> a new structure/organization, and this time, enough "political >> intelligence >> and centralization in hands of fulltimers" will be employed to not allow >> any >> chance for "drama of maturity/practicality even on ideology" . >> >> Centralize , centralize and centralize the organization in hands of those >> rare few, who understands it fully and r fully devoted - the path of >> reform >> is not guided by law of majority, who have third-class devotion and >> third-class understanding of the cause, but by the law of few, the few >> who >> can stake all for the sake of cause. That is the great political and >> psychological lesson that I learnt after working in BM organization for >> 2.5 >> years - and this is a very big and important lesson not only for pioneers >> of >> this cause but for society also . >> >> ready for brickbats :) but will not respond to such critics who >> themselves >> never understood BM's real ideology and never were humble enough to >> elevate >> themselves up to it rather than using their petty power to >> drag/dilute/mock >> the ideology . >> >> May God save every noble cause from pseudo-mature, worldly people. May >> all >> pioneers of such cause, be politically intelligent enough to protect >> the >> spirit of cause from pseudo-mature, worldly people. That's my only >> soul-deep prayer. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Gopal >> >> >> On 10/25/07, Abhijit K <abhijit13-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> wrote: >> > Friends, >> > >> > I try to write as less emails as possible nowadays, but Vivek's >> > enthusiasm >> makes me write this one :p .. >> > >> > I would like to say that more or less, I agree with what Vivek has said >> about the society, BUM and "us" .. the middle-upper-class-upper-caste >> elite of this country (and outside too !) .... >> > >> > I was accused of being a >> Marxist/Chinaist/something-like-that by somebody, in the >> past.. and I did not understand it... may be because I never tried to >> understand anything from its label.. As Vivek has said, the people's >> movement has matured with its experiences all over the world.. and with >> the >> writings of all the people that Vivek mentioned and .... more >> importantly >> with the collective experience of the people who chose to work with >> masses. >> Why do we try to label people and not listen to their thoughts on the >> issues >> ? ... We are not competing here to better the society .. isn't it.. ? >> > >> > I joined BUM out of the passion to do something, and that passion still >> continues.. but the understanding of the society and its problems and >> possible solutions has changed quite a lot with my own small experiences, >> writings of people and knowing the experiences of people who have given >> their lives for the cause.. >> > >> > BUM (whatever that means) in the form when it was incepted, where it >> started and the way it started, was a mistake... It was called a novel >> experiment, but it was an experiment bound to fail and ... lets try to >> digest it.. but.. it has failed... Most of the people on this email >> (including me) have played their part in taking it to its conclusion... >> It has brought a few sincere people together, and that is the good legacy >> I >> believe, it leaves behind.. >> > >> > As Vivek has raised questions... " >> > >> > Why could we not oppose Times of India's Lead India Contest? We are >> praising this contest by making silly logics. Why do we always think that >> our common society is too weak or fool? >> > Do we discuss all these things with concern with sincerity? >> > Do we think that now USA wants to govern us directly? Can planted >> > leaders >> work for common society? >> > " >> > ... lets start questioning the "BASIC ASSUMPTIONS" about the society >> > and >> the system that we are living in ... >> > >> > We need to identify ourselves with the people and the people's >> > movement.. >> The sincere folks in BUM need to think-n-act more seriously now... >> > >> > Regards, >> > Abhijit >> > (in my capacity as a volunteer for the people's cause.. ) .. >> > >> > -- >> > Abhijit Minakshi >> > About my name: >> www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt >> > >> > >> > >> > On 10/24/07, Vivek Umrao Glendenning < >> > umraovivek-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Respected Surendran Ji, >> > > I did not reply your mail because I got that you are writing mail >> > > with >> sincerity and out of reaction. I postponed to reply you. Today I have >> some >> extra time thus I read your mail again peacefully and now am replying >> you. >> > > --- >> > > >> > > First, about the story of ocean. >> > > >> > > At least the guy (use life jackets) will never be able to save lives. >> Because he will not walk always with Life-Jackets, if he will see again >> any >> guy in Ocean, then he will run to his house to collect his Life Jackets >> (because his preference is to save his own life, he does not want to >> sacrifice for others or with others). >> > > >> > > The other guy (who jumped immediately), if in his first chance, will >> > > not >> die in ocean then he will always save lives. Because he has only two >> options >> in his first chance. >> > > Either he will die in ocean or He will save the life of person >> > > including >> his own life. >> > > Now if first thing happen, then no doubt he is a great guy that he >> sacrificed his own life for others (similar to Bhagat Singh or Others). >> > > If he saved the life, this means he came from ocean to the land with >> > > the >> person, in this whole process he learnt swimming automatically, in the >> next >> time he will go to ocean to save life with better confidence, and each >> time >> he will be better and better and better. >> > > It is alive learning process. >> > > --- >> > > I am not a Marxist or also not a Gandhian. Because you can not be a >> Marxian or Gandhian or other ians, we always learn from others workings >> and >> add our own alive experiences for next. It is chain of society movement. >> I >> get many things good in Marx, Gandhi, Vivekanand, Tolstoy, Gorki, Khalil >> Jibran, Rousseau, Machiavelli, Aristotle, and too many others. To work in >> society is not an Essay writing or also not an Academic Seminar Place or >> a >> Class Room for Particular Subject that can not talk about Gandhi, if you >> are >> talking on Marx. >> > > You can not work on society by making a plan based on in good >> philosophy, you have to move on works with your own understanding of >> society >> and human beings. The readings can support you but it is not sufficient. >> A >> illiterate person can establish Ideal Social Models in Society and later >> his >> working can be accepted as philosophy and many intellectual can get their >> doctorates and post doctorates in world level universities based on his >> works even he is totally illiterate on definitions of universities. >> > > You wrote in your one mail that BM is working on plans, in my >> understanding that you can not work with plans in Indian Society, may be >> you >> can work with plans in Western Countries but in India you can not move >> with >> plans. Indian society is a much mature society but Indian State is not >> mature, because Indian State is following Western Countries Systems and >> philosophies and definitions. We have accepted in our inside that USA is >> mature, Western Countries are mature and also developed. If we start to >> watch carefully the causes for this then we get that we pray for Violent >> Powers and Materialistic Luxuries. >> > > BM says that it wants to work to make India developed, here, what is >> meaning of development? What is meaning of strong and powerful country? >> > > It is very easy to understand that what BM mean when it uses these >> words. BM follows definitions of USA or Western Countries and BM accepts >> USA >> and Western Countries as Ideal. Why does BM commit blunder mistakes here? >> Because BM was formed by IITians, and why IIT is illusion in Indian Urban >> Middle Class? Because it is very easy to get jobs and financial >> securities >> after IIT. >> > > After 1956, we can evaluate contributions of IITs to common Indian >> Society. IITs were formed for researches for social welfare with social >> accountability. IITs are not formed by air, these are formed by common >> people of India. Western Market needs cheap software workers and they can >> get it from India very easy by giving some currency to Indians. Because >> China was closed thus they could not get it from China, and now China has >> started to open it, even China has comparatively strong economy than >> India, >> China will provide software workers to western countries with more >> respectful manner than India. >> > > >> > > If you will start to evaluate various indian systems, you will get >> similar things.--- >> > > >> > > In Governance Systems- >> > > Government Officers and Political Leaders were/are busy to get a >> > > chance >> to go Western Countries on the Expenses of Common People, why? >> > > They write in their very long documents that they are going learn >> > > from >> other countries experiences for social development. Why do they not try >> to >> explore solution with the own traditional knowledge and from the society? >> Because we have habits of illusions and we do not respect qualities or >> abilities of human beings, we prefer to give weights to Brands and this >> tendency we got from colonial systems. >> > > We already had a bad and borrowed Governance System and we preferred >> > > to >> copy more and more things from Western Countries and later from USA. >> After >> the so-called liberalization on 1992, situation became more worse and >> worse. >> Only Elite and Upper Middle Classes became able to get Luxuries easily >> and >> without hassles. Middle and Lower Middle Classes started to get a seat in >> Upper Middle Class and this is going on under various cut-throat >> competitions. >> > > Can it be asked to officers and political leaders that what benefits >> without sacrificing sovereignty of society and country, they got by >> following blindly USA or Western Countries. >> > > Why is it appreciable to go outside or to get job out side india? >> > > When >> will we be able to remove our internal slavery? >> > > how can mental slave governance systems work better for society? >> > > >> > > In NGOs Field- >> > > In Indian NGOs, it is very bad habit that from their birth, they >> > > start >> to seek and try for funds. They work for media reports and media >> documentations to show proof to funding agencies to get money from them. >> NGO >> try to get FCRA account that they can be able to get foreign currency >> from >> International Funding Agencies. They try to call people from Western >> Countries for Evaluation etc. >> > > Would we like to evaluate our these internal slaveries? >> > > >> > > I know that only in one year, we have invested more than 10 Million >> > > Rs >> only from the local society, even these areas are comparatively >> economically >> poor. Actually, we do not want to the people or masses, we do not want to >> walk with the last society even we always talk that we are working for >> last >> society. We are ready to make efforts with Funding Agencies as like dogs >> but >> we are not ready to go with society. We are ready to accept monitoring >> and >> evaluation from the Funding Agencies but we are not ready for evaluation >> or >> monitoring by common society. Why? because we can not make fool to the >> society, we can make fool to Funding Agencies because funding agencies >> evaluate by Articles, Documents, Papers and by Media. >> > > >> > > What I say- From where Funding Agencies (Govt or Non-Govt) get money, >> obviously by common society then why should we not go directly to the >> society? I know it is difficult to go in society than to go a small >> group. >> > > >> > > For example- Why does Dr Ravi not want to go directly in society? >> Because he will be evaluated by his working, by his actual understandings >> of >> society, if he will make mistakes society will throw out him without >> giving >> a second chance. He will have to start from ZERO in society and may be >> society will start to trust on him after two or three decades. Thus he >> uses >> short cuts, he sends heavy philosophical mails and uses the illusions of >> USA >> and IIT etc on a small but privileged group, he will be trusted easily >> and >> will get lots of money by manipulating realities of under privileged >> society. >> > > He has no relation with Village Economy with his Ashram but because >> > > he >> can access privileged group by the conditionings of illusions, he will >> get >> money and again the last society will have to become toy of Dr Ravi's >> experiments of Village Economy. If we will see in depth then from where >> Ravi >> got understanding, from USA, he did not go to last society and he will >> work >> for Village Economy and by getting money from outside especially from >> USA. >> And why BM will trust him only because he was in USA. >> > > Not only Ravi Kant Pathak, but hundreds of Ravi Kant have formed >> > > Ashrams >> to establish ideals of Village Economy etc. But if there is an Ashram >> then >> where will be village and if outer funds will be taken then where will be >> Village Economy? >> > > >> > > I am not opposing Ravi Kant, if he thinks that he is thinking right >> > > then >> he must go to form an Ashram as like hundreds of others but it will in >> different Umbrella ie BM. But will it be a model of Village Economy? This >> is >> the fundamental question. He can be a good teacher in IIT in his subject >> but >> to be a faculty in IIT does not indicate perfection in all dimensions of >> the >> society. If he wants to work for Village Economy then he should go to an >> unknown village as unknown person and should start a work from zero, I >> can >> bet, he will get understanding out of various projected conditionings. >> > > >> > > Economy, Leadership & Media- >> > > To be equal as USA or Western Countries, we are interested in their >> > > life >> style. Now in India every thing is moving around currency. There are lots >> of >> Floating Currency in India, and it is only because of wrong policies by >> policy planners. Now this Floating Currency is being floated within >> Indian >> population. The fundamental character of this Floating Currency is- to >> take >> a big round within mass and again return to the same pocket. Currency can >> not be owned because it has no worth, but it creates a pseudo that it can >> be >> owned. It is a big game of Floating Currency in India, MNCs are indulged >> to >> increase corruption in Indian Governance System, how currency can be made >> White Currency from Black Currency, only by method of Floating Currency. >> > > >> > > Every where we can see there are too many things, by which you can >> become a Millionaire and we are in race of to be Millionaire as early as >> we >> can. >> > > We go in various TV Channel Programmes and give answers for silly >> questions and become millionaires, and where we spend that >> currency.........? How many people can access all these things? >> > > Are all these thing not have impacts on our society/ our governance >> system/ our economy etc? >> > > Should we not try to analyze the causes of our mental slaveries? >> > > >> > > Why could we not oppose Times of India's Lead India Contest? We are >> praising this contest by making silly logics. Why do we always think that >> our common society is too weak or fool? >> > > Do we discuss all these things with concern with sincerity? >> > > Do we think that now USA wants to govern us directly? >> > > Can planted leaders work for common society? Indirectly in India, a >> projected move is going on that common or poor people should not run in >> leadership because they are fool and can not understand high academic >> things >> or do not have academic qualifications. Indirectly it is being projected >> that villagers are fool and urban are mature because they have currency >> and >> can access many luxuries. >> > > Nowadays very strange mentality is moving that the ability to access >> Luxury, Currency and Communication Systems are maturities and best >> things. >> > > >> > > BM members speak that they are working on plans. I am not able to >> understand that how, without having direct access in depth of society, BM >> is >> working on policies or plans? >> > > >> > > I have a lot to say but it will depend on replies. >> > > --- >> > > I hope, I did not commit crime by writing this email. >> > > love >> > > vivek >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > From: Surendran B >> > > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:37 AM >> > > To: BM_discussion-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > > Cc: Group BM General Body >> > > Subject: [BM_discussion] Re: Fw: Brotherhood: Humanity: Social >> > > Working: >> Priorities in individual life >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Dear Mr.Vivek >> > > >> > > First of all I m pleasantly surprised by your decision to include me >> > > in >> the intellectual class or that is what I understand from your mails. If >> that is what you meant, I am obliged to tell you something in this >> regard. >> I am not a scholar, nor an academic, I don't have an IIT/IIM degree or >> for >> that matter I don't even belong to any of the premier educational >> institutions. I am a software professional by qualification but I don't >> work for any corporate (I am not intending too) and I do not have access >> to >> really big money and I never had it too. On top of all I am not even >> half >> your age. But I do know what our society is, where I stand in it, what >> it >> needs and what my accountability to the society is etc, if not to your >> levels and I strongly believe I would learn it with age and I am of the >> opinion that yours' is not the only way to do it. >> > > >> > > Well if you feel there is no ideological base in this thread, I >> > > would >> be happy to straighten it out. I would be very glad to explain my stand >> if >> you can kindly point out where I have erred in logic. Since you have >> raised >> this point of ideology and logic, I would also like to ask you something >> in >> this regard, which I feel you would be more than willing to answer and >> clear >> my doubts. In your replies, you have visualized BM as the elite class >> and >> that you are willing to stand with the under privileged class. This, if >> I >> am not wrong, is a Marxist stand. This being the case, are you working >> towards social reconstruction or are you marching towards a revolution to >> overthrow the elite class and put the subaltern class in a better >> position. >> If this is not the case and if you are not a Marxist by ideology why >> shouldn't I tell that you are pulling up ideologies at will to justify >> the >> points you are willing to convey through that mail. How would you >> logically >> justify Gandhian ideology and Marxism in a single mail? While you >> criticize >> the mails for being philosophically loaded, intellectual, heavy but >> hollow >> words etc, how would you explain this act of pulling Marxism out of no >> where, into this issue, though you are not putting it in direct words? >> > > >> > > I presume that you had realized that people passing out of the >> premier educational institutions are doing so only to get an identity and >> security, long before this issue has come up. If that is the case, why >> did >> you need those identities in your mail and you are yet to answer this >> question of mine. Also, what made you change it? You also claim to have >> the mass support. I guess that it was that section of masses which were >> underprivileged that you were working for and so would you like to say >> that >> these identities and securities were absolutely immaterial for your >> works? >> > > >> > > >> > > When a person is dying in the ocean you may jump in it, >> > > even >> if you don't know swimming, to save him. I would like to appreciate this >> tendency of yours and I bet not many would have this guts. You may even >> succeed in saving the person, even if you yourself don't know swimming. >> But >> how many times can you do the same. If for instance, if you happen to >> drown >> (God Forbid) during the second such incident, what is the plight of the >> persons who would fall in the same ocean after that. We do not want one >> such scenario to come up and our intentions are to develop such a >> situation >> whereby nobody falls into the ocean again. We may be slow but sure to >> reach >> there or at least initiate the process which would be continued by the >> forthcoming generations. >> > > >> > > As you have chosen not to reply in this chain anymore, I >> would request you to post me a reply to my inbox at least and I am >> eagerly >> awaiting it. >> > > >> > > >> > > On 10/20/07, Vivek Umrao Glendenning >> > > <umraovivek-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > From: Social Ownership >> > > > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:40 AM >> > > > To: Dr. Kamal >> > > > Cc: Bharat Shilpi ; >> > > > ravikantpathak-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> > > > rupeshgarg20-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> ; drprahalathan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> amit.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> call2amritesh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> ; abhijit13-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> rishikesh-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> gopalkrishna.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> ; ashok.sachan2006-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> pratibha.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> pratibha.mission-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> manoj.khurana-9Rhygfy4HAdiLUuM0BA3LQ@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> swadheenjain-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> komal-mWPh4kDnAzoBMX2RrO7yXg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> shoubhik.p-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> spnargund-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> aman.mission-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> krishanu8-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> bhatvikram-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> adityagogate-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> bm_general_body-/JYPxA39Uh5TLH3MbocFFw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> ashok_sachan2002-/E1597aS9LQxFYw1CcD5bw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> cbalajee-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ; >> ankur.gattani-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > > > Subject: Brotherhood: Humanity: Social Working: Priorities in >> individual life >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Respected Dr. Saheb, >> > > > Sorry i am not anyone's big brother. I am too younger in age. Sorry >> > > > i >> am a common man and like to stand with common man. I am hard in my daily >> life also if there is anything against common man. Sorry only to get some >> praising from Elite Group i can not leave my stand. >> > > > >> > > > I know very well the sensitivities of you all in various social >> > > > issues >> for last two years. I know it very well. Please go and evaluate the works >> and stand of BM including Dr Ravi and off course your also. Still i have >> a >> question, a moral question that when you should work, when society needs >> you >> or based on your own life style calculations. How can you join your hand >> with exploited society even you are also contributing very well in the >> exploitation of society. Even these questions look stupid to you all, but >> if >> you will be able to answer only then you will be able to work for society >> in >> real sense. >> > > > >> > > > I can not stop you to think based on your own conditioning but i >> > > > can >> say one thing that you were wrong and are wrong in evaluation. >> > > > May be you think in your mind that you are very right, but i know >> > > > that >> you or Dr ravi or others knew from your childhood that your society is >> suffering and is being exploited but you opted to not work for society >> (you >> had options, everyone has options), it was your own choice. Society was >> not >> in priority from your childhood and still society is not in your priority >> (then why should i take your evaluation or advices seriously? please do >> not >> mind it). >> > > > >> > > > Suppose one person is dying in a ocean, what i will do, even i do >> > > > not >> know swim but i will throw myself in ocean. What you will do, you will go >> to >> learn swimming and then you will go to arrange for two life jackets and >> ropes then you will go in ocean, but till then......(you can think >> easily, >> what you will get in ocean) and because you will go to learn in a >> swimming >> institute and to get life jackets thus people will know that you are >> going >> to save a life you will be praised and also will get media publicity and >> also will get award (it is sure by this mean you will be a very big >> Social >> Worker as Dr Reddy mentioned in his mail for Dr Ravi). In this story, i >> will >> be feeling exactly same thing as that man, i will be also seeing my death >> then me and that guy both will try our best to save our lives together >> and >> we will also feel brotherhood and this feeling of brotherhood and i will >> be >> able to understand live experience of his pain and it will not be >> advertised. And in this incident i would have learnt swimming also and >> will >> be moving to be a human being (not a social worker). You can make >> thousands >> of logics but i know very well that there are millions of millions >> persons >> are dying and numbers of life jackets are very less in number. >> > > > >> > > > I entered in social activism when i was less than 15 years in my >> > > > age, >> no body trusted me that i will continue in works but they have left and i >> am >> still here, many persons have told me that i am rude thus i will not have >> committed friends. >> > > > But i know that i have lots of friends with commitment and have >> > > > mass >> support also, but i always face problems from Elite Class as i have been >> facing in BM. I have decided that i will stand with non-privileged class. >> > > > >> > > > Except me who is criticizing Dr Ravi? No one? >> > > > I know that Dr Ravi and you are not very honest this is why you do >> > > > not >> like my critics. If you will start to see with depth then you will get >> that >> if i have ego then i have base for it and you have baseless ego. If i >> have >> ego and non-polite guy then how mass is giving its support to me. I think >> manners, attitudes, and other similar things are just for Elite Groups, >> still these words need to be defined. Why should i follow definitions of >> Elite Group? >> > > > I wait your conditioned, biased and full of logics reply. >> > > > >> > > > You evaluate via Emails, i evaluate by actions and activities and >> > > > live >> behaviour. You guys are evaluating Dr Ravi because he writes good >> language >> mail. I evaluate by his actions. You feel that he is walking in truth >> because he writes long article on truth, i want to ask a simple question >> that why he mobilize BM members to become General Secretary of BM even he >> came just for few months in India (under which type of Truth and Gandhian >> Ideology?). You trust him in his statement of Village Economy because his >> dreams are very good in his writings but i want to know that by getting >> money from outside and by having a luxurious Ashram how he will move >> towards >> Village Economy (Economy means Currency?). You are saying that Dr Ravi ji >> is >> polite and sensitive, only because he speaks very soft in language and in >> mails. I think that he is an very violent man he mobilized BM members to >> become General Secretary even he had no moral rights for it, he has not >> practical experiences but he is mobilizing only by emails that he should >> be >> granted 9 Million Rs in next few years. He opted to leave India and spent >> his quality years in USA and will spend remain energetic (what is the >> base >> of his sensitivity?). For you he can be very sensitive, i know that >> because >> people are not very aware thus people will be with him because of his >> many >> illusions. >> > > > But my questions are only because he makes lots of too heavy >> statements that he walks in truth, high moral values and in Gandhian >> Ideology, he provides me opportunity to ask questions by his own >> statements >> as i give opportunity to you to write negative mails to me. (i hope you >> will >> try to understand my points above than your identity, high personality >> and >> ego (not giant)). >> > > > >> > > > One more thing, i always reply, even i am criticized by you or >> > > > others >> because communication break is not a good thing. >> > > > I went to Gwalior to meet BM members including but Dr Ravi had no >> > > > time >> to have talk with me, because he is perfect and has perfect understanding >> thus he does not need any learning. It is because of Egos of IIT, >> Singapore, >> $ and USA. I know some young BM members, they have much better >> understanding >> of society than Dr Ravi but they have not back up of USA, $ or also not >> from >> any Dr Reddy, Dr Kamal and others. >> > > > >> > > > Respected Dr. Akalpita Ji, >> > > > India is in very critical state, it needs very hard TAPASYA, not >> > > > less >> than this. Society is not a joke or a toy for Elites that it should be >> played as they want. BM member called me for one hour and spoke to me >> heavy >> philosophical words on Flood with high sensitivity but till now those BM >> members are not anywhere in action. People are interested to work on >> T-Sunami but not in Flood, because T-Sunami was an international media >> publicity also, but Flood is not a media publicity. In flood, there are >> more >> continuous sufferings than one time T-Sunami. Have you visited damaged >> Villages of Earth Quakes? Just after few months, anyone can go and can >> evaluate the alive examples of manners and sensitivities of our Elite >> Groups. >> > > > >> > > > I live with painful society directly. I am totally unable to >> understand heavy but hollow wordings of ........ >> > > > Sorry for my disabilities. >> > > > love >> > > > vivek >> > > > >> > > > Rest is on you. >> > > > love >> > > > vivek >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On 10/20/07, Dr. Kamal >> > > > <kksharma1-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Dear Vivek, >> > > > > Even in your apologies (if you seriously meant them) gives a >> > > > > clear >> indication of your giant ego and that you seem to have been hurt at the >> attempt of people to just tell you to mend your ways and appreciate >> efforts >> of others. >> > > > > I wish God gives you enough time and patience to mend your >> > > > > publicly >> non-defensible writings and be better known as a very sensible social >> worker >> for the last society. I know you do not need any certificate for that but >> whats the harm in appreciating and not looking down upon other's efforts, >> you will only see there are more friends along your journey to support >> and >> appreciate your efforts (I know you do not need them)...and in the >> process >> we will be able to make 1+1=11 for the common society. Everybody will >> benefit from that, even the last man, let the positive energies flow, >> even >> in a child or an MNC millionaire. If you have the guts and leadership >> ability to bring together such efforts on a common platform, that will be >> your golden contribution to the society...I am not only talking about >> money >> but efforts in kind. But till you are able to unite the efforts, you >> seriously need to learn to be positive and shed your ego or else let >> others >> do what they want and do not criticise them. Remember, every bit of >> criticism can only lower the morale of people because it is coming from >> YOU >> who is a veteran in this field. But being a big brother calls for more >> maturity and understanding. >> > > > > Hope your future glows more positive than today and let the >> > > > > common >> man benefit. Take this positively, you may like to react as always but if >> only you would be able to see the positive energy within... >> > > > > Regards. >> > > > > Dr.Kamal >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On 10/19/07, Vivek Umrao Glendenning >> > > > > <umraovivek-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Respected Dr Ravi Kant Ji, Dr Reddy Ji, Dr Kamal Ji, Surendran >> > > > > > Ji, >> Ranjan Ji and others >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I apologize for my all mails. I think, I should not reply in >> mails. I have understood that BM is a great organization and all are >> great. >> > > > > > Respected Brothers and Sisters, >> > > > > > Please this time forgive me, I will try my best to not put my >> > > > > > leg >> in any discussion or matter. >> > > > > > I hope I will be forgiven. >> > > > > > Please Respected Dr Reddy Ji forgive me, Please Surendran Ji >> forgive me, Please Dr Ravi Kant Pathak Ji forgive me, Please Dr Kamal >> Kishore Sharma ji forgive me, Please Ranjan Ji forgive me, Please all BM >> members forgive me. >> > > > > > I promise, I will try to praise BM and its members by accepting >> their greatness and completeness. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > love >> > > > > > vivek >> > > > > > ps- please forgive me, please accept my apology. please. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [BM_discussion] Re: Uniting and Rejunvenating BM >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Vivek >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I hate to entre in to any debate. But, now, I request you, stop >> it. I agree with you regarding asking for money in such large quantities. >> I >> donot find any logic. Money should come automatically when the work needs >> it. First one has to start working. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > But >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Tum bahut muh fat ho. >> > > > > > Kya tumhara yaha manana hai ki tapsya sirf jangal me ya himalay >> jaisi pahdiyon me ki ja sakti hai? Kya nagarme rehene walonme koi tapswi >> nahi banta? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Kya manav jatiko sevake liye ghar bar chhodneki aawashyakta >> > > > > > hai? >> Ky koi apni jagaha, apne kartavyanko nibhate huve logonki seva karte hi >> nahi? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Maan liya ki tum is dishame sabse bahut hi aage ho. >> > > > > > Mera manana hai ki tumne pichhle janam me chhoda huva adhura >> > > > > > kaam >> aage badhaya hai. Us vaqt jab kaam chalu kiya tha, tumhari umra kya hogi? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Jo tum kah rahe ho, danke ki chot par tab kahana jab tumhari >> santan ho. Jab tumhari santan ek kadam chalegi, usko bahut khushi hogi. >> Tab >> kya tum kahoge ki isme kaunsi badi bat hai? Mai to marethon daud chuka >> hun. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Koi bhi kisibhi umarme agar ek kadam bhi chale to uski sarahana >> karna sikho. Tum bade ho hi. Dusron ko chhota dikhake kya tum aaur bade >> ban >> jaoge? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Vidya vinayena shobhate, yah sahi hai ki ya fir >> > > > > > Vidya vinayena na shobhate? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Ek bat pakki than lo. Ma kabhi kharidi nahi ja sakti. aaur, >> > > > > > agar >> bachheko sahi rasta na dikhaye to vaha maa nahi hoti. So mai to tumhe >> batati >> hi rahungi. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Remember >> > > > > > they also serve who only stand and wait. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > abhi logon ne aage badhna shuru kiya hai. Jis disha me tum >> > > > > > choti >> par ho. unki sarahana karna sikho. Na ki unko chot panhuchao. Isase >> tumhare >> vyaktimatvako char chand lag jayenge. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Tum kitnebhi naraj ho jao. Mai jitni tumhari sarahana karti >> > > > > > hun, >> utnahi tumhe samzane ka haq rakhti hun. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ek bar fir spashta kardun. tumhara batana galat nahi hai. >> > > > > > Bataneka >> tarika, dhang galat hai. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Akalpita >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Gopal Krishna >> >> B. Tech Computer Science, IIT Kanpur >> 1st year MS, UIUC >> ph: 1-217-819-0966 >> Homepage: http://gopalkrishna.mission.googlepages.com > > > -- > Abhijit Minakshi > About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt > > > coordinator-mYmh/0hSoedfBpw/PFCx40B+6BGkLq7r@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ................................................................................................................... Please visit our Annual Work Report, Articles and try to make a comment-- www.localgovernance.org/workreport001.html www.localgovernance.org/videos.html www.localgovernance.org/socialownershipintro.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------- www.localgovernance.org/family.html [ we work for SOCIAL DEMOCRACY, SOCIAL OWNERSHIP, SOCIAL ECONOMY, SOCIAL EDUCATION, SOCIAL THOUGHTS, TRIBAL SOCIETY, AGRO-INDUSTRIAL-ECONOMY and SOCIAL VALUES] ============================================================================== TOPIC: Fwd: [YSC] Garibi hatao, eliminate the poor http://groups.google.com/group/BM_discussion/browse_thread/thread/2f7529de380f11c2?hl=en ============================================================================== == 1 of 1 == Date: Wed, Oct 31 2007 11:06 pm From: "Abhijit K" ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Somu Kumar <somukumar-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Date: Nov 1, 2007 11:16 AM Subject: [YSC] Garibi hatao, eliminate the poor To: aid-umcp-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Garibi hatao, eliminate the poor http://www.rediff.com/india60/2007/oct/31jain.htm Having largely failed to alleviate poverty in the past 60 years, the powers that be are now set to eliminate the poor. They have chosen the moneylender to be their hatchet man. Laws and rural credit policies are to be revised to pump public funds in his hands to expand his operations multifold. The moneylender will do what he knows best: tighten his deadly stranglehold on the poorest of the poor. What is the basis for us to make such a serious charge? On October 18, 2006, addressing the Second Agricultural Summit, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [ Images<http://search.rediff.com/imgsrch/default.php?MT=manmohan%20singh> ] called upon for "more thinking on the credit front. What do farmers need, a lower rate of interest or reliable access to credit at reasonable rates? To do that, do we need to bring in moneylenders under some form of regulation?" The Reserve Bank of India [ Get Quote<http://money.rediff.com/money/jsp/quote_process.jsp?query=bank%20of%20india> ] promptly appointed a Technical Group headed by its legal advisor, with three IAS officers and five banking officers as members. Its report (August 2007) makes a startling revelation that, in fact, 'the issue of mainstreaming moneylenders has confronted the government and policy makers for a long time since 1971. The report of the Study Group on the Indigenous Bankers (an honorific title given to moneylenders) had noted that but for the services of these indigenous bankers, several segments of the neglected sectors would have been even more neglected.' Recall that proposition was advanced soon after the launch of the Garibi Hatao (get rid of poverty) campaign, and the nationalisation of banks in 1969; and subsequent regime of lending to priority sectors and expansion of bank branches in rural areas for delivering 'social' credit to liberate the poor from the clutches of moneylenders. Thirty-five years later, the report of the RBI's Technical Group (August 2007) concludes that 'there is a case for looking at possibility of leveraging the presence of moneylenders who continue to operate despite century-long efforts by policy makers to find substitute for them.' To speed up the facilitation and funding of moneylenders by the state, the group has furnished draft legislation for recruitment of moneylenders. It has of course added a heroic promise of 'regulating' thousands of moneylenders as if that will be easier than regulating the handful of big banks. - *DON'T MISS! India@60* <http://www.rediff.com/india60/index.html> In so doing the policy makers have shut their eyes and conscience to all the studied evidence on their shelf about the operations and impact of moneylenders on the rural poor. They have ignored even the latest warning on the subject by economist Mihir Shah and others in 'Rural Credit in 20th Century India -- Overview of History and Perspectives', published in *The Economic And Political Weekly*, April 14, 2007. Incidentally it was published while the Technical Group was still deliberating the issue. They have condemned the Technical Group Report for 'crowning of the moneylenders.' It is a real shock, they say, that the Group has rejected measures to avert farmers' suicides recommended by RBI's own Johl Working Group (2006) that prescribed a *lakshman rekha* that, in no case, five acres of agricultural land and a house of a borrower shall be attached. It illumines how private money lending to the poor turns out to be so profitable: The mechanism is precisely the interlocked markets in the colonial period. The only collateral rural borrowers can offer is future labour service, future harvest or the right to use already encumbered land. The lender is in a powerful position to undervalue these not easily marketable collaterals. This transfers the risk of default from the lender to the borrower. Monitoring is no longer an issue as the borrower is far more worried about losing the collateral than the lender is. And there is great incentive for charging usurious rates of interest because default will only mean that the lender grabs the asset offered as collateral. The moneylender could even be said to prefer default to repayment. This is an extraordinarily ingenious but utterly exploitative relationship, which has sustained itself over centuries in India. It concludes: it is deeply distressing to note that the government is even considering that it could 'bring in moneylenders' to solve the problem of rural credit. There cannot conceivably be bigger disaster than that, especially when thousands of farmers are already being driven to suicide. In fact, since the launch of economic reforms in the early nineties, the state apparatus has been busy expanding the space for the moneylender. The Debt Investment Survey shows that between 1991 and 2002 the share of moneylenders in the total dues of rural households increased from 17.5percent to 29.6 percent -- a whopping 75 percent increase in their penetration. This was enabled by the government and RBI choking the flow of institutional credit to the rural poor explains P Satish, (Agricultural Credit in the Post-Reform Era, *EPW*, June 30, 2007). He adds that the share of institutional credit agencies in the outstanding amount of cash dues of the rural households, which in two decades between 1971 to 1991 had increased from 29 per cent to 64 percent, was slashed to 57 per cent between 1991 and 2002; the proportion of credit to agriculture (of total bank credit) was allowed to fall from 15 percent to less than 10 percent; and rural credit/ deposit ratio decreased from 60 percent to 39 percent. And who bore the brunt of this depredation? The small borrowal accounts (below Rs 25,000) whose number shrank from 59 million 36 million between 1991 and 2003-04. The authorities also emasculated the related supporting institutional mechanisms for rural credit. In 1992-93, the RBI stopped altogether its contribution to the Long Term Operation Fund and has since then been transferring its entire profits to the Central Government probably to reduce the latter's fiscal deficit. Growth of resources for refinance of rural credit was severely constrained: the General Line of Credit which had reached a level of Rs., 6, 600 crore in 2001-01, was tapered down and totally discontinued in 2006-07. The incremental credit/ deposit ratio which averaged 60.4 per cent during the decade 1981-91, was drastically reduced to 34.5 per cent during 1991-2001. The level of capital investment in agriculture that was at 1.88 per cent of GDP in 1992-93, declined to 1.27per cent in 2002-03. In the post-reform period, through a devious scheme the authorities also liberated the commercial banks from the obligation (imposed on them under the regime of priority lending) to lend a minimum to the rural poor. The sums -- by now about Rs 10,000 crore which they ought to have put in the hands of the rural poor -- were now permitted to be credited by them to an officially devised Rural Infrastructure Development Fund (RIDF) held in NABARD. RIDF is accessed by just five state governments to finance large infrastructure projects though alternative sources exist for funding such projects. It is daylight robbery. In contrast, Japanese policy makers till today recognise that massive state-led resources are a must for agriculture, forestry and fisheries which have such characteristics as uncertain harvests affected by climate, wide price fluctuation of outputs, long gestation periods, characteristics of low return on investment and poor markets for possible collateral. Are these characteristics any different than what plague the rural poor in India? Is it surprising then that the growth rates in agriculture which averaged 3.2 per cent per annum in the pre-reform period of 1982-90 have steadily and steeply declined to a dismal 0.7 per cent in 2004-05. We are now told that 'agriculture is not a paying proposition'. Of course, there is no pay commission for agricultural workers. The most assured way of liquidation of the rural poor is to starve agriculture -- the principal means of their livelihood. *Dr L C Jain was an active participant in the Quit India movement and has been engaged in economic-social development for the last 60 years. He was a member of the Planning Commission and served as India's high commissioner to South Africa.* <http://www.rediff.com/india60/columns.html> -- -- Mass Candlelight Vigil on October 2nd, 2007 to support Indian farmers and Agriculture * Please Participate * - http://agri.aidindia.org/october2 -------------------------------- http://www.aidboston.org/images/AIDFarmerSuicideBanner.gif -- Abhijit Minakshi About my name: www.geocities.com/abhijit1303/aboutname.txt ============================================================================== You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BM_discussion" group. 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