Subject: Re: OT : Fwd: des caricatures représentant le Prophète Mohamed salla ALLAH alih wa sallam - msg#00234

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Sorry, but an error occured when I uploaded the zip file I have uploaded it once again can be found here: http://chrystalyst.free.fr/draganddrop/dragndrop-0.1.2.zip MeV ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid3432&bid#0486&dat1642

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Re: OT : Fwd: des caricatures reprÃsentant le ProphÃte Mohamed salla ALLAH alih wa sallam

Hey, I didn't want to get into this, but it's hard to resist :P In my opinion, Muslims have done exactly what they shouldn't have done. I am Christian by birth, don't believe in religion, and most of my friend are Muslim, even though I sound harsh, I hope Muslim readers don't take this in an offensive way. 1. Muslims did attack a church in Lebanon in retaliation to the drawings and they burnt the Danish Embassy in Beirut. They also burnt some cars that where around the Embassy even though those people had nothing to do with it. Even though a small group of extremists are the ones who are responsible, they where surrounded by a bigger groups of Muslims doing a "peacefull protest". Well, guess what, it makes all of them look bad, and the media loves this and feeds this through the whole world. And then the message emitted by those drawings is reinforced. Each burnt down embassy and bomb threat make the cartoons seems more and more real to the western world. 2. Islamic law does not apply in Denmark. Even though what they did was immoral, stupid and just a way for the newspaper to get some attention, the Muslim world should not try to punish the whole country for the actions of a stupid newspaper editor (boycotts, burning embassies and making Danish people afraid to travel to Muslim countries). No matter how offensive the images are, they are not allowed to impose Muslim law on country, and should not try to force Muslim law on them by any means. They are certainly not allowed to send bomb threats to the newspaper. Respect of other religions is not something that is forced, it is something that is earned through dialog and sharing. This again gives them an excuse to show how Muslim countries don't have freedom of expression and are all under strict control from their governments. But my main problem is that it shows the world that Muslims are hostile, violent and aggressive. Think about it, you have the Western world that publishes some harmless seeming cartoons, and you have the Muslim world that starts burning, rioting and making bomb threats. Who do you think looks good and who do you think looks bad? And how much credibility are they giving the cartoons? In my opinion, Muslim should chill. The cartoons are offensive yes, but they are not worth all this attention. The Danish newspaper is probably making record profits now because of all this media attention. And posting messages about it on a mailing list does not help. Just forget about it and get on with your lives. Some stupid newspaper editor decided to get smart, and well, it seems he accomplished everything he wanted to. And Muslims are giving him exactly what he wants. Laterz, Burger ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=103432&bid=230486&dat=121642

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Re: [Amsn-devel] OT : Fwd: des caricatures représentant le Prophète Mohamed salla ALLAH alih wa sallam

humm... you're right on that one, I may have made a mistake, not sure who didn't want to make excuses, but I do think it was the government.. you are 100% right on what you say, although government usually make excuses for anything that came from their country (which is another debate as it is stupid in itself..) but I do think the government was implied in this in some way... don't know much details about this though.. Thanks for sharing your opinion :) KKRT On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 12:48:31 -0500, Harry Vennik <htvennik@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: the president of danemark refused to give us excuses I'm not going to comment on all of this, except for the line quoted here, just to say that it is not fair to expect any excuses from the Danish government, for one very simple reason: If excuses are made, they should come from the one(s) responsible for the publishing. The Danish government is not responsible for that in any way because Danish newspapers are not controlled by the government. ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=103432&bid=230486&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ Amsn-devel mailing list Amsn-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/amsn-devel -- KaKaRoTo ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=103432&bid=230486&dat=121642

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Re: [Amsn-devel] OT : Fwd: des caricatures reprÃsentant le ProphÃte Mohamed salla ALLAH alih wa sallam

HI Christian, thanks for your answer.. you have some good facts, and indeed, you're not flaming :) But I'm still not convinced by what you say, and I probably will never be as this is a hot topic and people rearly change their beliefs on such topics... but I'll just briefly comment on what you said below... On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 13:59:51 -0500, Christian Sonne <cers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: On Mon, Feb 06, 2006 at 12:32:43PM -0500, Youness Alaoui wrote: Hi there.. for once, I'm forwarding an email, and I'm forwarding it to this list too, and that's because I think it's important! The attached text is in french, so let me explain it... I guess some of you know, there were 12 caricatures, representing the muslim's prophet, Mahomet, that were published in Danemark at the end of last September. Look, I refuse to belive that all of the commotion is caused by those images, and here's why: The commotion is from being fed up with all of this, as we say in french "la goutte qui a fait deborder la vase".. try to translate it.. 1) Mohammed has been depicted on hundreds of occasions before, both in serious and satirical contexts. Assuming muslims would have reacted differently if the context had been serious, let's only speak of the satirical ones, most notably as he appeared in South Park, and a spike tv bit, where he gets his head cut off by moses - no reaction from muslims. depictions of the prophet is a non respectful manner will always bring problems.. the thing is "how many muslims have seen it".. South Park.. yeah, how many muslims saw that episode ? but that's not the problem.. I'm sure south park got a complaint and apologized for it, the problem is when people say "no, we want to and we will do it" without any care of what a whole part of the world is thinking... 2) if it was really that much of insult, the reaction would not have waited almost 5 months - it would have come swiftly. because non violent action was done and only lately they were re-published in another newspaper and when other people say that it's "freedom of speech"... + noone ever talked about it on TV until riot began.. all pacific manifestations were simply ignored... And I think it was published in 2 newspapers.. it was in september by a certain newspaper, I think that one was ok, they apologized for it, then problems began when another newspaper published the images again and refused to apologize for it.. 3) the whole situation was handled just fine by the local muslim community, untill danish and other leading muslims started lying to the muslims counties about what had actually happened - they have been caught lying on television on several occasions, among other things displaying pictures on cnn that has never been published in denmark, claiming that they came from the newpaper - and saying that 'every day since the drawings were published, we have brought much worse stories about muslims', and that's simply not true. I don't know the exact details.. the story is still new even to me.. but from what I always heard it's 12 drawings.. I've seen some which are also in the site you linked below.. about CNN.. I think it's non muslims who did that because CNN is against muslims is took a habit of lying and causing problems to muslims... They actually opened a contest (for no specific reason) asking people to send caricatures of the muslims prophet, and they published 12 of them (the 'best' ones), either representing the prophet in a humiliating image or describing him as a terrorist (our prophet with a lit bomb on his head, or whatever...). Untrue - the entire controversy started when Danish author KØâre Bluitgen complained that he could not find an artist brave enought to illustrate his upcoming book about Mohammed. The newspaper Jyllands-Posten issued a call for submissions from any artists willing to take up the challenge. ok, I didn't know about this, Thanks for the information. But tell me one thing.. I saw some of the pictures in the book, they looked respectful, but then, why 12 caricatural drawings were published by the newspaper ? I think they should have never been published if it was only for the book... This is a huge insult to all muslims, and for many reasons, not only because they are associating our beloved prophet with terrorism, but also Untill I saw the violent reactions, I would never have dreamt of associating Mohammed with terrorism, guess what, now it's pretty hard not to - even when I know that far from all muslims reacted as inapropriatly. well, the violent acts are not to considered muslim acted.. as I said, Islam is 100% non violent.. all the pacific things were ignored, and TV only shows the riot.. it's again another nice way to brain wash people... because no image/drawing representing the prophet is allowed in Islam (to avoid iconography.. having an icon as an idol, the prophet being simply a messenger shouldn't be represented).. so not only did they violate this law, but also they are implicitly telling the whole world that muslims are 1) there is no law in denmark against depicting Mohammed it's not a legal issue, it's an ethical issue... 2) if you can honestly say that publishing a satirical reprensenation of Mohammed is equal to 'telling'(?) the entire world that all muslims are terrorists, then - well.. then no good can ever come from this discussion not equal, not almost.. I'm not talking about the educated people, who have brains.. but those people are rare.. most of the population of the world will automatically associate islam with terrorism.. and that is already the case btw!!! 3) as mentioned earlier, he is even depicted in mosques around the world - if you want, here's a list of older depictions of the profet: http://info2us.dk/muhammed/ (note: this is a mirror located in denmark, but the original site is not danish) ok, I even remember seeing some of these images.. you do have a point there and it didn't even cross my mind.. but still, I think that depicting the prophet in an activity like preaching is acceptable, as long as it's respectful and people know that it is only for history, not for iconography.. I mean, when I see someone praying to an image of Jesus or kissing a cross.. I just think that they're far from the real thing, God is above us all.. but anyways, that's another subject I don't want to get into.. anyways, I understant that those drawings are also not there for iconography, so you do have a point.. it stays that it's disrespectful... When you think that some images, when you see a coca cola ad, there are 100s of psychologists that worked behind that single image just to get it to your brain in a certain way... tell me what this image sends as a message to anyone reading it (assuming it's an ignorant person who knows nothing about islam) : http://info2us.dk/muhammed/drawing.JPG terrorists! if people beleive it's not true, don't worry, children who will see these pictures will grow up with that idea (brainwashing the people, as always.. same as what happened with wearing the hijab (the veil), now everyone thinks a woman with the hijab is a woman who is beaten and has no human rights, etc... while it is the total opposite, and noone ever thought of it as the exact same of christan nuns...) Trust me, if theer had been litte or no reaction, no dane would have even remembered the drawings by now - if anything will make children in the rest of the world think muslims are terrorists, its their reaction to those drawings - nothing else. on the contrary my friend... these pictures, plus another one, plus a text about muslims.. plus those damn images about muslims burning the embassies.. plus Ben Laden saying "in the name of Allah" and other stupidities like this (burning embassy is stupid and was done by stupid people who aren't following the islamic way), that's what gives that impression... if no reaction was done, it would have been one more subliminal mesage.. the next one would be bigger, and after 100 subliminal message the little danish guy who never heard what "islam" is gets a question from his son "dad, what is Islam", he thinks, thinks, and thinks harder, and all he gets is blood, bomb, terror.. he answers "it's a satanic cult that aims to destroy the world by killing as many innocents as possible".. that's 100% sure the answer he'll give.. Problem is that.. I live it everyday here.. most of the people are already like that... happens when I tell someone I'm muslim he would answer me "damn, I though the borders were closed to such people"... or when I say I'm moroccan, I got an answer like "how did you come here?" when I say by plane, I got an answer like "ohh, do you have someplace where you leave the camels when you get to the airport???".. what kind of stupidity is that... many people here think that "Morocco" is a brand of oranges simply because moroccan oranges (which are 'the best') have a label on them 'Morocco' to identify them as moroccan oranges (-> good oranges)... so no, those drawings wouldn't do the harm I'm talking about.. but those drawing added to the thousands of other little things (like the south park thing as a simple example) add up to be very destructive for our community... Anyways, I won't debate on all this. The thing is that those caricatures were out, official mulsim associations requested them to be removed and excuses be sent to the islamic people.. the president of danemark refused to give us excuses, the newspaper that published those images also refused to remove them, and alot of other public companies supported the 1) the danish prime minister has no say in the matter - he did not print them, he cannot do anything about other people printing them - it is perfectly legal. legality is not the question... there is probably no law against talking about Satan, what about creating a channel that displays 100% subliminal messages to incite people to enter a satanic cult... it's perfectly legal, but then unethical... + you have to respect other people... 2) how exactly should the newspaper 'remove' them? - it's a printed medium that has been distributed well, not remove them, but accept his fault... not sure though about this part of the story 3) the newspaper has appologised on several occasions, and the danish prime minister has also said that he himself do not find the images 'in good taste', but the simple fact is that he cannot appologise for something he didn't do, and has no control over. didn't know this part of the story... I guess false information is everywhere then.. maybe you're the one who has the false info, maybe I'm the one... I can't tell but from what I heard they refused to apologize and that's because they said it's "freedome of speech" to show them... although I though freedom of speech was something else... Maybe the one that apologized was the original newspaper and the one that refused to was the other newspaper that published them afterwards (not sure if it was republished by a second danish newspaper though...) newspaper!! This has no sense, especially when you hear a politician say "bush is stupid for doing it this way" and he gives his excuses to the USA and leaves all political activities because he wasn't 'politically correct'.. but for muslims, no way they give excuses.. The most shocking part of all this for me was when I heard that France, Norway and Germany published those same images in protest AGAINST muslims!!! they protest, This is not in protest against muslims, it is in protest against the violent reactions, burning the danish embassy is an act of war (if the government organized it) or just goverment supported terrorism if they wittingly allowed it to happen - the army was there, yet nothing was done to stop it, so it's one of the above. no I'm sorry but the first embassy that was burnt, the first terrorist (not muslim) that took a gun and pointed it to the EU was a few days after it was published again... I remember it perfectly.. burning the embassies was today and yesterday.. 2 days before some guys took the EU embassy in 'hostage' and wrote 'Closed' on its door (which by the way on TV, they said "they wrote insults and crap on the walls of the embassy", while in fact it was 'Closed'.. I read arabic and I assure you I was shoked at hearing the reporter and reading with my own eyes...(those are again the brain washing I'm again talking about...)) and before that, it was a big problem as france, norway and germany published these drawing in protest and the big polemic between freedom of speech and freedom of cult, etc... Also, government was not there, when there were there a lot of people were injured and the government stopped them.. but they did nothing, I'm sure it's not true! and it's not an act of war.. come on! it's a bunch of uneducated, stupid, people who claim to be muslims and bring havor, and yet they say that the government is organizing it... what the government did in some countries was to stop their comercial transactions between the involved contries (where the government supported the drawings)... saying that it's 'freedom of speech' and they should be allowed to publish those images if they want.. I was really shoked to think people would say things like this!! because I though freedom of speech is to have the freedom to say the truth without anyone forcing us to keep things quiet... now it became freedom of speech meaning you can lie and disrespect a religion!!! Where is our freedom in this ??? Satirical drawings has nothing to do with lying - your freedom is to ignoer us - odds are you would probably never have heard of the images, unless other muslims had distributed them I already explained why you can't just ignore them... + people are exhausted of everything against muslims... your dignity is hurt... you can't ignore someone insulting you.. maybe you can once, twice.. but not if he does 24/7 during many centuries... Anyways, it's been a huge hit to the muslim community, a lot of trouble is taking place everywhere especially in Palestine I think because they just can't handle any more humiliations... By the way, did you ever hear muslims say something against other religions ? We respect christians and jews.. there was never soemthing you meen like calling christians 'godless animals' and the likes? - yes I have - at least people who claim to be muslims. WHAT THE FUCK ??? who ever said ?? those people are NOT muslims!!! as I said earlier or in another email, we're the religion who respect the most other religions, it is written in the Quran that Moise came and brought God's teachings, then Jesus came and completed it, and that the Quran is the completion of the other two books and no muslim can call himself muslim without prior reading the other 2 books and respecting the other 2 religions to the exact same level as he respects Islam.. this is what islam is about!! godless animals.. wtf... humiliating for you that we ever released... wars were never done on churches... When you see that some countries are happy to launch missiles on mosques at the hour where everyone is praying in the mosquee in order to kill the maximum number of muslims, but muslims never attacked a church during war.. even terrorists (who are NOT muslims) never bombed a church or anything like that... so why do other religions always have to attack our religion ? Anyways.. just imagine if we released in the arabic world This is not a case of one religion attacking another - it's images printed by a privatly owned newspaper. well.. don't want to start the topic.. but either the cartoonists are christians, or jews.. if they don't have any religion.. then I someone else in the chain most have! it was against muslims, coming from either christians or jews... images of Jesus/Mary in humiliating postitions and I don't want to give any examples of such images that could be released.. what would the other Exept for maybe a few 'extremist' groups in USA, I can assure you that no one else would have cared - especially danes, that's for sure - jesus is often depicted in satirical contexts, and we're a protestant christian country it's not the exact same... most people who call themself christians don't care, but those who call themself muslims have a huge respect for their religion and for their prophet.. how many times did you read the Bible ? how many times the average 'christian' has read the Bible ? most have never even looked at it... I probably read more of it than most christians around me... a muslim should read the whole Coran, and he should read it enough to be able to recite it completly... if you take someone who is religious enough to have read the whole Bible at least once, and you laugh at Jesus and draw Jesus as a homosexual or something.. I'm sure he'll be very much offended... if you tell him that's you'll pin it in school, he'll be frustrated, and if he asked his teachers/principal to remove the drawing because it's offending for him, and all he gets is "it's his freedom of speech, he has the right to insult your religion".. I think he'll be so frustrated, he'll go and remove it the pin/drawing himself from the board.. and then the principal will fire him for vandalism... that's the exact same thing that's happening... only here, TV came and said that all christians are vandals... countries say ? I don't think they'll ever say anything, they'll just send some missiles to the headquarters of the newspaper who released these images... now imagine countries taking position and doing the same claiming it's "freedom of speech"... Anyways, I'm not a religious guy, I am indeed muslim, but I'd say muslim of education and beliefs but not of actions.. I mean, I never prayed, I never follow any of the rules or anything.. but one thing I can't stand, is when people disrespect one of God's religions (no matter which one)... This is one of the fundamental differences between muslims (at least many of them) and most of the rest of the world - we couldn't give a rats ass about who thinks what about our beliefs or way of life - what they think about it is their choice, and we would never dream about forcing them to keep quite about it. no, it is said in the Quran that whatever someone thinks, if he's in the wrong path, you shouldn't interfere with him, you shouldn't try to convince him of anything.. if he has to change, God will guide him... or something similar.. so those extremists who are preaching and trying to convert everyone or try to 'punish' those who act against peace... well, they're probably in the wrong... But that's not about what people think about us.. it's about respect, but also, when you get insulted so many times, there's some time when you just can't hold it anymore.. that's not muslims, that's human nature! (you're saying the difference between muslims and the rest of the world... it's not about muslims! it's about humans who are opressed by the rest of the world because they are muslims! and that's the result of this opression...) On that note, I'd like to say that of course I have no problem with muslims who were insulted, they are allowed to be - they are allowed to try the case in court, and to use any non-violent means they can think of to try to influence the way people think and act - that's all fine. What is not acceptable, is responding with violence - especially against ordinary danes, who had nothing to do with the drawrings and their publication. against "ordinary danes who had nothing to do with it" or with the persons directly involved, they had no right to use violent, that I agree with you! Finally, I would like to add that I consider none of what I have said 'flaming' - I believe my post to be mostly factual, but if anyone should dissagree, please note which subjects are not substanciated thouroughly enough, and I will try to provide further documentation/background. I agree with you, no flaming, only factual.. too bad you're also brain washed :P j/k, seriously though, too bad most of the things are not revealed, and too bad you don't know the whole story on muslims opressions and all the killing muslims have suffered from Isreal and USA (and others...) This email/forward is intended to ask from you to go vote on this website : http://www.lemonde.fr/web/sondage/0,25-0,15-737075,0.html it seems the 'Le monde' newspaper is having a poll to know if people approve and understand the reaction of muslims (burning Danemark's embassy for example) or not... I don't approve it, as it is against Islam to act this violently, but I do understand their reaction... I don't want to start a flamewar, especially not on this subject, so I don't want people to start answering this mail and flaming other's opinions.. I would just want to have everyone's opinion on this, but I don't want people to comment on other's opinion.. If I see someone say something untrue or with whom I disagree, I will control myself and not answer to avoid the flaming... (which means if I don't answer, it doesn't mean I agree with you :P). In any case, no matter what your choice is and what you think, it's the same for me as long as you say it in a respectful manner!! Could everyone go vote on the website, it's important to everyone I think! The poll is : Devant la polØÂmique suscitØÂe par la publication de caricatures reprØÂsentant Mahomet et l'associant parfois au terrorisme, quelle est votre rØÂaction ? 'In front of' the polemic that was brought by the publication of the caricatures representing Mahomet and sometimes associating it with terrorism, what is your reaction ? The choices are : Vous comprenez l'indignation qu'elles suscitent parmi les musulmans . == > You understand the indignation that they brought amongst muslims Vous la jugez abusive : il s'agit de simples caricatures == > You judge them (muslims reactions) abusive : they're just simple caricatures anyways. Sans opinion == > Without opinion. Thank you all and sorry for the off topic, but I really think it's important! KaKaRoTo Objet: c'est tr?s important !! Salam alaykoum wa rahmat Allah wa Barakatouhou >>>>>> Je vous transmets un message que je viens de recevoir : Le journal LE MONDE vient de publier un sondage sur le jugement de la publication des caricatures repr?sentant le Proph?te Mohamed salla ALLAH alih wa sallam en l'associant au terrorisme. Participez vite pour basculer le sondage au bon choix, et faites passer le mot au plus grand nombre de personnes. *http://www.lemonde.fr/web/sondage/0,25-0,15-737075,0.html* Si le lien ne fonctionne pas, faites un copier du lien et coller le dans votre navigateur, je vous en remercie. Votre voix compte ! Faites tourner ce message ? tous vos contacts, s'il vous plait Devant la pol?mique suscit?e par la publication de caricatures repr?sentant Mahomet et l'associant parfois au terrorisme, quelle est votre r?action ? *Vous comprenez l'indignation qu'elles suscitent parmi les musulmans . 41.8 % Vous la jugez abusive : il s'agit de simples caricatures . 56.6 % Sans opinion . 1.6 % Nombre de votants : 30763* Que Dieu te r?compense par le paradis, Inch'Allah R?cemment, au Danemark, un journal a lanc? un concours sur lA meilleur caricature de NOTRE CHER PROPHETE Muhammed (Paix Et Benediction Soit Sur Lui). En effet, 12 caricatures ont ?t? publi?es montrant le personnage du proph?te v?tu d'un chapeau pleins d'armes et d'explosifs, ou en train de faire la priere d'une fa?on humiliante et pire encore !!! Sachez mes freres et soeurs, que toutes les institutions publiques de la soci?t? danoise ont soutenu ce journal suite ? l'appel lanc? par la communaut? musulmane au Denmark pour arreter cette compagne contre l'ISLAM. Donc nous lan?ons un appel ? tout musulman jaloux pour sa religion, de diffuser ce message et d'inciter son entourage au *BOYCOTT des produits danois (laits assech?s :Nido, Anchor, beurre LaPark,....).* N'oubliez pas que nous allons rencontrer Le Prophete (Paix et Benediction Soit Sur Lui) sur la rivi?re de Al KAWTAR et pensez ? la r?ponse que nous allons donner. Imaginez ?galement que votre m?re, ou votre soeur vient d'?tre insult?, quelle sera votre r?action akhi./okhti? et Qu'aimes-tu le plus akhi/okhti? prefere-tu ta famille ? ton noble proph?te? Que faire ?? Best regards -- KaKaRoTo ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid3432&bid#0486&dat1642