Marc Perkel wrote:
Thanks for your suggestions but EFF can not realistically create
30,000 individual newsletters. And we don't know what we are really
looking for since I think that ONE persone reporting - perhaps
accidentally - can get the newsletter labeled. The problem might not
be reproducable.
I have dozens of very naive computer users in marketing who create
newsletters & marketing campaigns every day. They email out to about
2-300000 email addresses on average. Even they can create individual
messages. It's all in the tools. Heck, I'd expect the EFF to be able to
do individual messages in the next newsletter with a quick perl script
if necessary. All that's required is the willingness.
Picture this - one person going through a long list of spam messages
with EFF's newletter in the mix and accidentally forwards it as spam.
I think it would have to be more than one if I understand the way Razor
works correctly
The problem is - EFF can't find out what happened and everything else
is a guess.
People on the list have told you what is most likely happening. Even you
admit your list isn't anywhere near perfect (You make no attempt to keep
it correct). Fix your list and then come back & discuss it rationally
instead of claiming that Razor is somehow magically censoring your
freedom of speech...
H
Kelson Vibber wrote:
If you strip away all the inflammatory language and accusations, what
we basically have is this:
1. The EFF is concerned that Razor could be manipulated into blocking
legit mailing lists by making them look like spam. Their own
newsletter has recently been labeled as Spam by Razor.
2. The Razor community is concerned more with the specific case of
the EFF's newsletter than the general. They have pointed out that a
conspiracy or deliberate manipulation is not necessary to explain why
the EFF's newsletter was labeled, merely bad mailing list practices
(to which the EFF has admitted using).
Additionally,
3. People on this list have suggested ways for the EFF to determine
who reported the issue as spam, including: Make several slightly
different versions of the next mailing and see which ones end up in
Razor. Break the next mailing into batches, sending them out at
different times and seeing when it shows up in Razor. Repeat to
narrow things down.
4. Because the Razor developers have kept the trust system secret, no
one can adequately explain just how prohibitive it would be to
manipulate the system in the way the EFF is concerned it could be.
So please:
EFF: You have things you can do on your end, including verifying your
list and breaking it down to find problem areas. Do them! Have you
ever read www.userfriendly.org, specifically the tech-support themed
cartoons? You're sounding like the belligerent callers who insist on
"Fix it now!" without being willing to pick up their own mouse.
Razor developers: the lack of info on TeS has again reared its ugly
head. I understand your concerns that revealing the algorithm would
make it easier to manipulate, but without giving solid answers (i.e.
"X type of manipulation won't work at all, Y type might work once but
will be corrected for"), people are going to assume the worst. Even
if the system is not being manipulated now, the concerns still seem
valid.
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