Subject: NX and exec-shield kernel summary - msg#00001

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RE: Request for post to comp.lang.lisp

Sent. | -----Original Message----- | From: gcl-devel-bounces+miketh=brisbane.paradigmgeo.com@xxxxxxx | [mailto:gcl-devel-bounces+miketh=brisbane.paradigmgeo.com@xxxxxxx]On | Behalf Of Camm Maguire | Sent: Thursday, 1 July 2004 12:38 AM | To: gcl-devel@xxxxxxx | Subject: [Gcl-devel] Request for post to comp.lang.lisp | | | Greetings! Would someone please post the following to comp.lang.lisp | for me? My isp's newsfeed appears to be broken. | | Plesae confirm so it is not posted multiple times. | | Thanks! | | ================================================================== | =========== | Greetings! You can find the release notes here: | | http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl/RELEASE-2.6.2.html | | Over the next few days, we will be uploading binaries requested by | various users for convenience to ftp.gnu.org. Shortly thereafter, | goals and priorities for 2.7.0 will be discussed and planned. Closing | the remaining ansi compliance issues will be foremost on the list in | any case. Feedback to gcl-devel@xxxxxxx of course most appreciated. | | Take care, | | -- | Camm Maguire camm@xxxxxxxxxxxx | ========================================================================== | "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah | ================================================================== | =========== | | -- | Camm Maguire camm@xxxxxxxxxxxx | ========================================================================== | "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah | | | _______________________________________________ | Gcl-devel mailing list | Gcl-devel@xxxxxxx | http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gcl-devel |

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Re: NX and exec-shield kernel summary

Greetings, and thanks for this. Gave it a quick once over, and don't expect this to give us trouble, but of course could be wrong. The emphasis in these patches appears to be executable permissions in various memory areas, but this has never posed a problem to GCL, as we explicitly mprotect PROT_EXEC anything we need (or should be anyway). The problem for us is rather in the seldom mentioned companion 'feature' in that the semantics of brk have been changed to return a randomized address. We're even ok with this up to the point of emacs' unexec, which is used in saving a new image. We now compile out of the box on machines using this by detecting it at configure time, and compiling into main the 'i386 personality' setting calls followed by a reexec. The danger for us might be that someday people might want to close this runtime exception possibility which only 'broken legacy apps' might need anyway and leave us stranded. Luckily, GNU emacs is our exact bulwark in this area -- we should be able to follow whatever procedure allows a gnu emacs build inside of gcl proper. I'm not sure how important this may be, but I think that a certain level of sustained noise from gcl/maxima/acl2/axiom users propagating upstream about our reliance on this might forestall a future 'enhancement' which breaks our build entirely. Was even dreaming about firing off an email from within gcl at each i386 personality set. Don't worry, just dreaming :-). If you ever have access to a machine with these new patches and want help in checking it out, please let me know. Take care, root <daly@xxxxxxxx> writes: > Camm, > > I follow the Linux Kernel mailing list and this was a summary > posting of the NX (no execute) and exec-shield status: > > > 4. 'NX' Security Features Coming To 2.6 > > 2 Jun - 8 Jun (66 posts) Archive Link: "[announce] [patch] NX (No > eXecute) support for x86, 2.6.7-rc2-bk2" > > Topics: Executable File Format, Microsoft, Security, Spam, Virtual > Memory People: Ingo Molnar, Linus Torvalds, Doug McNaught, Jakub > Jelinek, Brian Gerst, Christoph Hellwig, William Lee Irwin III, Andi > Kleen, Andy Lutomirski, Arjan van de Ven, Gerhard Mack, Jun Nakajima, > Rusty Russell > > Ingo Molnar said on behalf of Red Hat: > > we'd like to announce the availability of the following kernel patch: > > http://redhat.com/~mingo/nx-patches/nx-2.6.7-rc2-bk2-AE > > which makes use of the 'NX' x86 feature pioneered in AMD64 CPUs and > for which support has also been announced by Intel. (other x86 CPU > vendors, Transmeta and VIA announced support as well. Windows support > for NX has also been announced by Microsoft, for their next service > pack.) The NX feature is also being marketed as 'Enhanced Virus > Protection'. This patch makes sure Linux has full support for this > hardware feature on x86 too. > > What does this patch do? The pagetable format of current x86 CPUs does > not have an 'execute' bit. This means that even if an application maps > a memory area without PROT_EXEC, the CPU will still allow code to be > executed in this memory. This property is often abused by exploits > when they manage to inject hostile code into this memory, for example > via a buffer overflow. > > The NX feature changes this and adds a 'dont execute' bit to the PAE > pagetable format. But since the flag defaults to zero (for > compatibility reasons), all pages are executable by default and the > kernel has to be taught to make use of this bit. > > If the NX feature is supported by the CPU then the patched kernel > turns on NX and it will enforce userspace executability constraints > such as a no-exec stack and no-exec mmap and data areas. This means > less chance for stack overflows and buffer-overflows to cause > exploits. > > furthermore, the patch also implements 'NX protection' for kernelspace > code: only the kernel code and modules are executable - so even > kernel-space overflows are harder (in some cases, impossible) to > exploit. Here is how kernel code that tries to execute off the stack > is stopped: > > kernel tried to access NX-protected page - exploit attempt? (uid: 500) > Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address f78d0f40 > printing eip: > ... > > The patch is based on a prototype NX patch written for 2.4 by Intel - > special thanks go to Suresh Siddha and Jun Nakajima @ Intel. The > existing NX support in the 64-bit x86_64 kernels has been written by > Andi Kleen and this patch is modeled after his code. > > Arjan van de Ven has also provided lots of feedback and he has > integrated the patch into the Fedora Core 2 kernel. Test rpms are > available for download at: > > http://redhat.com/~arjanv/2.6/RPMS.kernel/ > > the kernel-2.6.6-1.411 rpms have the NX patch applied. > > here's a quickstart to recompile the vanilla kernel from source with > the NX patch: > > http://redhat.com/~mingo/nx-patches/QuickStart-NX.txt > > There were a lot of technical suggestions and comments from folks like > Christoph Hellwig, Andi Kleen, Rusty Russell, and Gerhard Mack. Also, > Linus Torvalds asked: > > Just out of interest - how many legacy apps are broken by this? I > assume it's a non-zero number, but wouldn't mind to be happily > surprised. > > And do we have some way of on a per-process basis say "avoid NX > because this old version of Oracle/flash/whatever-binary-thing doesn't > run with it"? > > In answer to the first question, Ingo and Arjan van de Ven (also from > Red Hat) confirmed that the amount of legacy breakage was in fact > zero. Ingo also explained that just in case, any breakage from this > would be less than other breakage already introduced by Red Hat. He > put it, "in the full install of FC1 and FC2 the number is zero - and > Fedora has exec-shield which does a couple of things more: it makes > the heap non-executable as well [this broke X], it randomizes the > address-space layout and has a 4:4 VM [which broke the Sun JVM]." Doug > McNaught added, close by, "Lisp systems like CMUCL and SBCL (plus > commercial Lisps) had problems with FC1 due to execshield. They tend > to do things like compile code on the fly to heap memory and expect to > be able to run it." And Jakub Jelinek (also from Red Hat) replied, > "They will still work, as long as you don't recompile them with recent > toolchain. When you recompile them, they either needs to be taught to > DTRT (i.e. use mmap with PROT_EXEC for executable stuff), or can be > linked with -Wl,-z,execstack to mark them as needing executable > stack. prelink package also contains execstack(8) utility which can be > used on already linked binaries/shared libraries." > > To Linus' second question, about the possibility of per-process > avoidance of NX for compatibility reasons, Ingo explained: > > we have three mechanisms for this in Fedora: > > 1. > > the PT_GNU_STACK flag itself - you can turn executability on/off > compile-time or even after the fact via the execstack(8) utility > Jakub wrote. This only affects the stack's executability - if an > application assumes a non-PROT_EXEC mmap() can be executed it > might still break with NX - but based on experience with Fedora > Core i'd say there's almost no such application. > > this method works in 2.6 too, since it supports > PT_GNU_STACK. gcc's PT_GNU_STACK mechanism is very conservative > - e.g. if an application does an asm() then gcc assumes that it > might rely on stack executability and emits the X > flag. [applications can then turn this off in the source if > stack executability is not required.] Likewise, if gcc emits > trampolines then the X flag is emitted too. (glibc knows about > PT_GNU_STACK all across - so e.g. if a nonexec stack application > dlopen()s a library that needs stack executability then glibc > makes the stack executable on the fly via > PROT_GROWSDOWN/GROWSUP.) > 2. > > via a runtime method: via the i386 personality. So an > application can trigger the 'legacy' Linux VM layout by e.g > doing 'i386 java ./test.class'. > > this is a hack in Fedora - we wanted to have a finegrained > runtime mechanism just in case. But it would be nice to have > this upstream too - e.g. via a PERSONALITY_3G? > > 3. > > via a kernel boot parameter (exec-shield=0) > > with the NX patch this becomes noexec=off [the same flag works > on x86_64 too]. This method is the most inflexible one, and is a > last-resort thing. (Fedora also has a runtime global switch to > turn off the VM layout changes.) > > here's a list of applications that we had to fix/work around in Fedora > when the VM layout changed: > > * emacs _rebuild_. (it coredumps itself during build ... xemacs is OK.) > > * some JDKs. Since they generate code and try to be as fast as > possible they tend to rely more on VM details than normal > applications. > > * X's module loader assumed that brk was executable. (fixed) > > * Wine. (it implements another OS so it's by definition very > sensitive to layout changes.) > > most of the breakages were unclean x86-only code that would have > broken if ported over to 64-bit anyway. > > old, legacy applications dont have the PT_GNU_STACK flag so they all > work fine. > > Regarding Wine's breakage when the Virtual Memory Subsystem changed, > Brian Gerst disagreed with Ingo's explanation, and remarked, "Wine > breaks because of the part of exec-shield that relocates shared libs > to low addresses, where the (stripped) Windows binaries expect to be > loaded at. NX stack doesn't affect it." Ingo accepted this, adding, "I > think Wine could get around this by creating a dummy ELF section in > the Wine binary that covers the first 1GB or so. Wine could still use > ordinary dynamic libraries - those would go above that 1GB. Then once > Wine has loaded up it can munmap() that first 1GB. (this would not > work if Wine has to dlopen() new libraries after this phase - does > that happen?)" But Christoph Hellwig suggested, "Why can't wine just > implement it's own binfmt_pecoff? Sounds like the much simpler > solutuion." And William Lee Irwin III said, "I'd be in favor of this > also. An executable format with wide enough usage is worth adding > kernel support for loading it." > > Ingo replied also to his own long post, dealing with his item 2 above, > the runtime method of triggering the legacy Linux VM subsystem. He > said: > > i've attached a patch that provides a cleaner solution. It does 3 changes: > > * it adds a ADDR_SPACE_EXECUTABLE bit to the personality 'bug > bits' section. This bit if set will make the stack > executable. (if in the future we decide to make the malloc() > heap non-exec [which i definitely think we should], that > property will also listen to this bit.) > > * in elf.h, it changes the x86 personality inheritance code to > match that of x86_64 - which is a much saner method. This means > if a complex app that does exec()s will all run with the > personality of the parent(s). > > * in exec.c, since address-space executability is a > security-relevant item, we must clear the personality when we > exec a setuid binary. I believe this is also a (small) security > robustness fix for current 64-bit architectures. > > (the patch also adds a break to the elf_ex.e_phnum loop - there can > only be one STACK header in the binary and once we found it we should > not iterate through the remaining program headers (if any).) > > we didnt want to add a non-standard personality flag to Fedora so we > abused PER_LINUX32 as the compatibility flag - but this only works on > x86. With the ADDR_SPACE_EXECUTABLE flag there would be a standard > method to fall back to 'legacy' executability assumptions Linux > applications might make. > > Andi replied to the third item in the list above, regarding clearing > the 'personality' when executing a setuid binary. He said, "This means > I cannot easily force an i386 uname or 3GB address space on suid > programs anymore on x86-64. While in theory it could be a small > security problem I think the utility is much greater. It's hard to see > how setting NX could cause a security hole. The program may crash, but > it is unlikely to be exploitable." Andy Lutomirski replied: > > The whole point of NX, though, is that it prevents certain classes of > exploits. If a setuid binary is vulnerable to one of these, then > Ingo's patch "fixes" it. Your approach breaks that. > > I don't like Ingo's fix either, though. At least it should check > CAP_PTRACE or some such. A better fix would be for LSM to pass down a > flag indicating a change of security context. I'll throw that in to my > caps/apply_creds cleanup, in case that ever gets applied. > > Andi thought it would be overkill to require an LSM module, but he > agreed that Andy had a good point, although Andi also objected, "that > only applies to the NX personality bit. For the uname emulation it is > not an issue. So maybe the dropping on exec should only zero a few > selected personality bits, but not all." This made sense to Andy; and > close by, Ingo said, "ok, how about the attached patch then? There's a > PERS_DROP_ON_SUID mask that we drop upon setuid - all the other > personality bits get inherited." Andy replied, "This is wrong on > SELinux (and presumably with other LSMs). It also does unexpected > things if you fail to exec a setuid executable." He posted his own > patch, and Linus Torvalds came in with: > > Let's not do this at all. > > Anything that changes subtle behaviour at suid-execute time is just > wrong. Imagine an app that has been tested in normal use, and then has > a subtle bug when executed set-uid, simply because the address space > layout changes. Or something that mysteriously works when you're root, > but not when you're anything else. Ouch. > > I think we should just look at the executable itself, not whether it > is suid. If the executable says it is "NX-approved", then it's > NX-approved. End of story - just try to make sure that as many > executables as possible get compiled with the newer compiler suite > that enables it. > > Add a tool to let people turn on/off the NX bit on an executable if it > turns out the executable can't work with it (let's say it was compiled > and tested on a CPU without NX support), and everybody should be > happy. You can have a trivial script that turns on the NX bit on all > the legacy apps too, and then if testing shows iot wasn't a good idea, > you can turn it off again on a per-executable basis. > > Ingo did a bunch more work, posting patches; and Arjan also remarked, > "the prelink rpm on Fedora has such a tool" [to flip the NX bit on an > executable] "already fwiw. (it's part of prelink because the elf > manipulations needed are quite similar to the ones prelink does so > infrastructure is shared)" Linus replied: > > Just for fun, can somebody that has the required hardware just test > old apps with NX turned on? > > I know we used to put the signal handler trampoline on the stack, but > these days that should all be handled with the magic executable > syscall page, so _normally_ I don't think an old application should > even really care. > > In fact, it would be interesting to just hear somebody running an > older distribution with a new CPU and a new kernel, and see just how > many programs need to be marked non-NX in "normal running". > > Arjan replied, "I know that in a FC1 full install there are less than > 5 binaries that don't run with NX. (one uses nested functions in C and > passes function pointers to the inner function around which causes gcc > to emit a stack trampoline, and gcc then marks the binary as non-NX, > the others have asm in them that we didn't fix in time to be properly > marked)." And Linus said: > > If things are really that good, why are we even worrying about this? > > It sounds like we should just have NX on by default even for > executables that don't have any NX info records, and have some way of > marking the (very few) executables that don't want it. Maybe have the > NX fault print a warning when it happens for an executable that > defaulted to NX on. > > I think most people have seen the security disaster that causes most > of the emails on the net to be spam. So this should be _trivial_ to > explain to people when they complain about default behaviour breaking > their strange legacy app. Especially if there's a trivial tool to add > an elf section to make it work again. > > So instead of having complex things to try to turn NX on for suid, we > should aim to turn ot on as widely as possible, _even_if_ that means > that people who upgrade hardware might have to do some trivial MIS > stuff. > > Make a kernel bootup option to default to legacy mode if somebody > literally has trouble booting and fixing their thing due to "init" or > similar being one of the problematic cases. Together with a printk() > that says which executable triggered, it should be trivial to clean up > a system. > > > > 5. exec-shield Patch Updated For 2.6.7-rc2-bk2 > > 2 Jun - 4 Jun (4 posts) Archive Link: "[patch] exec-shield patch for > 2.6.7-rc2-bk2, integrated with NX" Topics: Big Memory Support People: > Ingo Molnar, Christoph Hellwig, Joe Korty > > Ingo Molnar said: > > Here's the latest exec-shield patch for 2.6.7-rc2-bk2, integrated with > the 'NX' feature (see the announcement from earlier today): > > http://redhat.com/~mingo/exec-shield/exec-shield-on-nx-2.6.7-rc2-bk2-A7 > > you first have to apply the NX patch, which can be found at: > > http://redhat.com/~mingo/nx-patches/nx-2.6.7-rc2-bk2-AE > > prebuild kernel RPMs for Fedora Core 2, with this latest version of > exec-shield, are available at: > > http://redhat.com/~arjanv/2.6/RPMS.kernel/ > > (kernel-2.6.6-1.411 has this latest, NX-aware exec-shield.) > > if the CPU supports NX (and the kernel has been compiled with > CONFIG_HIGHMEM64G) then exec-shield will use NX to provide page-level > finegrained control over execution. On legacy CPUs that dont support > NX the segment-limit method is used to control execution (in a coarser > way). In the NX case the segment-limit is turned off altogether. > > e.g. on an Athlon64 box the boot message looks: > > NX (Execute Disable) protection: active > > on a CPU without NX the boot message is: > > NX (Execute Disable) protection: not present! > Using x86 segment limits to approximate NX protection > > note: the NX patch will also protect against kernel-space code injection. > > all the other components of exec-shield are identical between NX and > non-NX: the brk area is non-executable, libraries and PIE binaries are > moved into the ascii-shield as much as possible, and all aspects of > the address space are randomized. > > Christoph Hellwig thought the patch was too big and included more > stuff than some folks would want. He asked, "Any chance to split this > up a bit? Having the pure non-exec stack (and maybe heap) would be > really nice while the randomization feature are a litte bit too much > security by obscurity for my taste." Joe Korty disagreed, "It's no > more security by obscurity than keeping your key secret is security by > obscurity. (One can think of the randomization as a white-noise key)." > Nevertheless, Ingo posted a new patch with the randomization code > removed. But he added, "but i still think randomization is useful as a > last-resort barrier, against worm-alike mass attacks. There's a huge > difference between a 1-packet infection and a 2-hour brute-force > search over broadband, in terms of the 'economy' of worms." > > > > > -- Camm Maguire camm@xxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================== "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah

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RE: Request for post to comp.lang.lisp

Sent. | -----Original Message----- | From: gcl-devel-bounces+miketh=brisbane.paradigmgeo.com@xxxxxxx | [mailto:gcl-devel-bounces+miketh=brisbane.paradigmgeo.com@xxxxxxx]On | Behalf Of Camm Maguire | Sent: Thursday, 1 July 2004 12:38 AM | To: gcl-devel@xxxxxxx | Subject: [Gcl-devel] Request for post to comp.lang.lisp | | | Greetings! Would someone please post the following to comp.lang.lisp | for me? My isp's newsfeed appears to be broken. | | Plesae confirm so it is not posted multiple times. | | Thanks! | | ================================================================== | =========== | Greetings! You can find the release notes here: | | http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl/RELEASE-2.6.2.html | | Over the next few days, we will be uploading binaries requested by | various users for convenience to ftp.gnu.org. Shortly thereafter, | goals and priorities for 2.7.0 will be discussed and planned. Closing | the remaining ansi compliance issues will be foremost on the list in | any case. Feedback to gcl-devel@xxxxxxx of course most appreciated. | | Take care, | | -- | Camm Maguire camm@xxxxxxxxxxxx | ========================================================================== | "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah | ================================================================== | =========== | | -- | Camm Maguire camm@xxxxxxxxxxxx | ========================================================================== | "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah | | | _______________________________________________ | Gcl-devel mailing list | Gcl-devel@xxxxxxx | http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/gcl-devel |

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Re: NX and exec-shield kernel summary

Greetings, and thanks for this. Gave it a quick once over, and don't expect this to give us trouble, but of course could be wrong. The emphasis in these patches appears to be executable permissions in various memory areas, but this has never posed a problem to GCL, as we explicitly mprotect PROT_EXEC anything we need (or should be anyway). The problem for us is rather in the seldom mentioned companion 'feature' in that the semantics of brk have been changed to return a randomized address. We're even ok with this up to the point of emacs' unexec, which is used in saving a new image. We now compile out of the box on machines using this by detecting it at configure time, and compiling into main the 'i386 personality' setting calls followed by a reexec. The danger for us might be that someday people might want to close this runtime exception possibility which only 'broken legacy apps' might need anyway and leave us stranded. Luckily, GNU emacs is our exact bulwark in this area -- we should be able to follow whatever procedure allows a gnu emacs build inside of gcl proper. I'm not sure how important this may be, but I think that a certain level of sustained noise from gcl/maxima/acl2/axiom users propagating upstream about our reliance on this might forestall a future 'enhancement' which breaks our build entirely. Was even dreaming about firing off an email from within gcl at each i386 personality set. Don't worry, just dreaming :-). If you ever have access to a machine with these new patches and want help in checking it out, please let me know. Take care, root <daly@xxxxxxxx> writes: > Camm, > > I follow the Linux Kernel mailing list and this was a summary > posting of the NX (no execute) and exec-shield status: > > > 4. 'NX' Security Features Coming To 2.6 > > 2 Jun - 8 Jun (66 posts) Archive Link: "[announce] [patch] NX (No > eXecute) support for x86, 2.6.7-rc2-bk2" > > Topics: Executable File Format, Microsoft, Security, Spam, Virtual > Memory People: Ingo Molnar, Linus Torvalds, Doug McNaught, Jakub > Jelinek, Brian Gerst, Christoph Hellwig, William Lee Irwin III, Andi > Kleen, Andy Lutomirski, Arjan van de Ven, Gerhard Mack, Jun Nakajima, > Rusty Russell > > Ingo Molnar said on behalf of Red Hat: > > we'd like to announce the availability of the following kernel patch: > > http://redhat.com/~mingo/nx-patches/nx-2.6.7-rc2-bk2-AE > > which makes use of the 'NX' x86 feature pioneered in AMD64 CPUs and > for which support has also been announced by Intel. (other x86 CPU > vendors, Transmeta and VIA announced support as well. Windows support > for NX has also been announced by Microsoft, for their next service > pack.) The NX feature is also being marketed as 'Enhanced Virus > Protection'. This patch makes sure Linux has full support for this > hardware feature on x86 too. > > What does this patch do? The pagetable format of current x86 CPUs does > not have an 'execute' bit. This means that even if an application maps > a memory area without PROT_EXEC, the CPU will still allow code to be > executed in this memory. This property is often abused by exploits > when they manage to inject hostile code into this memory, for example > via a buffer overflow. > > The NX feature changes this and adds a 'dont execute' bit to the PAE > pagetable format. But since the flag defaults to zero (for > compatibility reasons), all pages are executable by default and the > kernel has to be taught to make use of this bit. > > If the NX feature is supported by the CPU then the patched kernel > turns on NX and it will enforce userspace executability constraints > such as a no-exec stack and no-exec mmap and data areas. This means > less chance for stack overflows and buffer-overflows to cause > exploits. > > furthermore, the patch also implements 'NX protection' for kernelspace > code: only the kernel code and modules are executable - so even > kernel-space overflows are harder (in some cases, impossible) to > exploit. Here is how kernel code that tries to execute off the stack > is stopped: > > kernel tried to access NX-protected page - exploit attempt? (uid: 500) > Unable to handle kernel paging request at virtual address f78d0f40 > printing eip: > ... > > The patch is based on a prototype NX patch written for 2.4 by Intel - > special thanks go to Suresh Siddha and Jun Nakajima @ Intel. The > existing NX support in the 64-bit x86_64 kernels has been written by > Andi Kleen and this patch is modeled after his code. > > Arjan van de Ven has also provided lots of feedback and he has > integrated the patch into the Fedora Core 2 kernel. Test rpms are > available for download at: > > http://redhat.com/~arjanv/2.6/RPMS.kernel/ > > the kernel-2.6.6-1.411 rpms have the NX patch applied. > > here's a quickstart to recompile the vanilla kernel from source with > the NX patch: > > http://redhat.com/~mingo/nx-patches/QuickStart-NX.txt > > There were a lot of technical suggestions and comments from folks like > Christoph Hellwig, Andi Kleen, Rusty Russell, and Gerhard Mack. Also, > Linus Torvalds asked: > > Just out of interest - how many legacy apps are broken by this? I > assume it's a non-zero number, but wouldn't mind to be happily > surprised. > > And do we have some way of on a per-process basis say "avoid NX > because this old version of Oracle/flash/whatever-binary-thing doesn't > run with it"? > > In answer to the first question, Ingo and Arjan van de Ven (also from > Red Hat) confirmed that the amount of legacy breakage was in fact > zero. Ingo also explained that just in case, any breakage from this > would be less than other breakage already introduced by Red Hat. He > put it, "in the full install of FC1 and FC2 the number is zero - and > Fedora has exec-shield which does a couple of things more: it makes > the heap non-executable as well [this broke X], it randomizes the > address-space layout and has a 4:4 VM [which broke the Sun JVM]." Doug > McNaught added, close by, "Lisp systems like CMUCL and SBCL (plus > commercial Lisps) had problems with FC1 due to execshield. They tend > to do things like compile code on the fly to heap memory and expect to > be able to run it." And Jakub Jelinek (also from Red Hat) replied, > "They will still work, as long as you don't recompile them with recent > toolchain. When you recompile them, they either needs to be taught to > DTRT (i.e. use mmap with PROT_EXEC for executable stuff), or can be > linked with -Wl,-z,execstack to mark them as needing executable > stack. prelink package also contains execstack(8) utility which can be > used on already linked binaries/shared libraries." > > To Linus' second question, about the possibility of per-process > avoidance of NX for compatibility reasons, Ingo explained: > > we have three mechanisms for this in Fedora: > > 1. > > the PT_GNU_STACK flag itself - you can turn executability on/off > compile-time or even after the fact via the execstack(8) utility > Jakub wrote. This only affects the stack's executability - if an > application assumes a non-PROT_EXEC mmap() can be executed it > might still break with NX - but based on experience with Fedora > Core i'd say there's almost no such application. > > this method works in 2.6 too, since it supports > PT_GNU_STACK. gcc's PT_GNU_STACK mechanism is very conservative > - e.g. if an application does an asm() then gcc assumes that it > might rely on stack executability and emits the X > flag. [applications can then turn this off in the source if > stack executability is not required.] Likewise, if gcc emits > trampolines then the X flag is emitted too. (glibc knows about > PT_GNU_STACK all across - so e.g. if a nonexec stack application > dlopen()s a library that needs stack executability then glibc > makes the stack executable on the fly via > PROT_GROWSDOWN/GROWSUP.) > 2. > > via a runtime method: via the i386 personality. So an > application can trigger the 'legacy' Linux VM layout by e.g > doing 'i386 java ./test.class'. > > this is a hack in Fedora - we wanted to have a finegrained > runtime mechanism just in case. But it would be nice to have > this upstream too - e.g. via a PERSONALITY_3G? > > 3. > > via a kernel boot parameter (exec-shield=0) > > with the NX patch this becomes noexec=off [the same flag works > on x86_64 too]. This method is the most inflexible one, and is a > last-resort thing. (Fedora also has a runtime global switch to > turn off the VM layout changes.) > > here's a list of applications that we had to fix/work around in Fedora > when the VM layout changed: > > * emacs _rebuild_. (it coredumps itself during build ... xemacs is OK.) > > * some JDKs. Since they generate code and try to be as fast as > possible they tend to rely more on VM details than normal > applications. > > * X's module loader assumed that brk was executable. (fixed) > > * Wine. (it implements another OS so it's by definition very > sensitive to layout changes.) > > most of the breakages were unclean x86-only code that would have > broken if ported over to 64-bit anyway. > > old, legacy applications dont have the PT_GNU_STACK flag so they all > work fine. > > Regarding Wine's breakage when the Virtual Memory Subsystem changed, > Brian Gerst disagreed with Ingo's explanation, and remarked, "Wine > breaks because of the part of exec-shield that relocates shared libs > to low addresses, where the (stripped) Windows binaries expect to be > loaded at. NX stack doesn't affect it." Ingo accepted this, adding, "I > think Wine could get around this by creating a dummy ELF section in > the Wine binary that covers the first 1GB or so. Wine could still use > ordinary dynamic libraries - those would go above that 1GB. Then once > Wine has loaded up it can munmap() that first 1GB. (this would not > work if Wine has to dlopen() new libraries after this phase - does > that happen?)" But Christoph Hellwig suggested, "Why can't wine just > implement it's own binfmt_pecoff? Sounds like the much simpler > solutuion." And William Lee Irwin III said, "I'd be in favor of this > also. An executable format with wide enough usage is worth adding > kernel support for loading it." > > Ingo replied also to his own long post, dealing with his item 2 above, > the runtime method of triggering the legacy Linux VM subsystem. He > said: > > i've attached a patch that provides a cleaner solution. It does 3 changes: > > * it adds a ADDR_SPACE_EXECUTABLE bit to the personality 'bug > bits' section. This bit if set will make the stack > executable. (if in the future we decide to make the malloc() > heap non-exec [which i definitely think we should], that > property will also listen to this bit.) > > * in elf.h, it changes the x86 personality inheritance code to > match that of x86_64 - which is a much saner method. This means > if a complex app that does exec()s will all run with the > personality of the parent(s). > > * in exec.c, since address-space executability is a > security-relevant item, we must clear the personality when we > exec a setuid binary. I believe this is also a (small) security > robustness fix for current 64-bit architectures. > > (the patch also adds a break to the elf_ex.e_phnum loop - there can > only be one STACK header in the binary and once we found it we should > not iterate through the remaining program headers (if any).) > > we didnt want to add a non-standard personality flag to Fedora so we > abused PER_LINUX32 as the compatibility flag - but this only works on > x86. With the ADDR_SPACE_EXECUTABLE flag there would be a standard > method to fall back to 'legacy' executability assumptions Linux > applications might make. > > Andi replied to the third item in the list above, regarding clearing > the 'personality' when executing a setuid binary. He said, "This means > I cannot easily force an i386 uname or 3GB address space on suid > programs anymore on x86-64. While in theory it could be a small > security problem I think the utility is much greater. It's hard to see > how setting NX could cause a security hole. The program may crash, but > it is unlikely to be exploitable." Andy Lutomirski replied: > > The whole point of NX, though, is that it prevents certain classes of > exploits. If a setuid binary is vulnerable to one of these, then > Ingo's patch "fixes" it. Your approach breaks that. > > I don't like Ingo's fix either, though. At least it should check > CAP_PTRACE or some such. A better fix would be for LSM to pass down a > flag indicating a change of security context. I'll throw that in to my > caps/apply_creds cleanup, in case that ever gets applied. > > Andi thought it would be overkill to require an LSM module, but he > agreed that Andy had a good point, although Andi also objected, "that > only applies to the NX personality bit. For the uname emulation it is > not an issue. So maybe the dropping on exec should only zero a few > selected personality bits, but not all." This made sense to Andy; and > close by, Ingo said, "ok, how about the attached patch then? There's a > PERS_DROP_ON_SUID mask that we drop upon setuid - all the other > personality bits get inherited." Andy replied, "This is wrong on > SELinux (and presumably with other LSMs). It also does unexpected > things if you fail to exec a setuid executable." He posted his own > patch, and Linus Torvalds came in with: > > Let's not do this at all. > > Anything that changes subtle behaviour at suid-execute time is just > wrong. Imagine an app that has been tested in normal use, and then has > a subtle bug when executed set-uid, simply because the address space > layout changes. Or something that mysteriously works when you're root, > but not when you're anything else. Ouch. > > I think we should just look at the executable itself, not whether it > is suid. If the executable says it is "NX-approved", then it's > NX-approved. End of story - just try to make sure that as many > executables as possible get compiled with the newer compiler suite > that enables it. > > Add a tool to let people turn on/off the NX bit on an executable if it > turns out the executable can't work with it (let's say it was compiled > and tested on a CPU without NX support), and everybody should be > happy. You can have a trivial script that turns on the NX bit on all > the legacy apps too, and then if testing shows iot wasn't a good idea, > you can turn it off again on a per-executable basis. > > Ingo did a bunch more work, posting patches; and Arjan also remarked, > "the prelink rpm on Fedora has such a tool" [to flip the NX bit on an > executable] "already fwiw. (it's part of prelink because the elf > manipulations needed are quite similar to the ones prelink does so > infrastructure is shared)" Linus replied: > > Just for fun, can somebody that has the required hardware just test > old apps with NX turned on? > > I know we used to put the signal handler trampoline on the stack, but > these days that should all be handled with the magic executable > syscall page, so _normally_ I don't think an old application should > even really care. > > In fact, it would be interesting to just hear somebody running an > older distribution with a new CPU and a new kernel, and see just how > many programs need to be marked non-NX in "normal running". > > Arjan replied, "I know that in a FC1 full install there are less than > 5 binaries that don't run with NX. (one uses nested functions in C and > passes function pointers to the inner function around which causes gcc > to emit a stack trampoline, and gcc then marks the binary as non-NX, > the others have asm in them that we didn't fix in time to be properly > marked)." And Linus said: > > If things are really that good, why are we even worrying about this? > > It sounds like we should just have NX on by default even for > executables that don't have any NX info records, and have some way of > marking the (very few) executables that don't want it. Maybe have the > NX fault print a warning when it happens for an executable that > defaulted to NX on. > > I think most people have seen the security disaster that causes most > of the emails on the net to be spam. So this should be _trivial_ to > explain to people when they complain about default behaviour breaking > their strange legacy app. Especially if there's a trivial tool to add > an elf section to make it work again. > > So instead of having complex things to try to turn NX on for suid, we > should aim to turn ot on as widely as possible, _even_if_ that means > that people who upgrade hardware might have to do some trivial MIS > stuff. > > Make a kernel bootup option to default to legacy mode if somebody > literally has trouble booting and fixing their thing due to "init" or > similar being one of the problematic cases. Together with a printk() > that says which executable triggered, it should be trivial to clean up > a system. > > > > 5. exec-shield Patch Updated For 2.6.7-rc2-bk2 > > 2 Jun - 4 Jun (4 posts) Archive Link: "[patch] exec-shield patch for > 2.6.7-rc2-bk2, integrated with NX" Topics: Big Memory Support People: > Ingo Molnar, Christoph Hellwig, Joe Korty > > Ingo Molnar said: > > Here's the latest exec-shield patch for 2.6.7-rc2-bk2, integrated with > the 'NX' feature (see the announcement from earlier today): > > http://redhat.com/~mingo/exec-shield/exec-shield-on-nx-2.6.7-rc2-bk2-A7 > > you first have to apply the NX patch, which can be found at: > > http://redhat.com/~mingo/nx-patches/nx-2.6.7-rc2-bk2-AE > > prebuild kernel RPMs for Fedora Core 2, with this latest version of > exec-shield, are available at: > > http://redhat.com/~arjanv/2.6/RPMS.kernel/ > > (kernel-2.6.6-1.411 has this latest, NX-aware exec-shield.) > > if the CPU supports NX (and the kernel has been compiled with > CONFIG_HIGHMEM64G) then exec-shield will use NX to provide page-level > finegrained control over execution. On legacy CPUs that dont support > NX the segment-limit method is used to control execution (in a coarser > way). In the NX case the segment-limit is turned off altogether. > > e.g. on an Athlon64 box the boot message looks: > > NX (Execute Disable) protection: active > > on a CPU without NX the boot message is: > > NX (Execute Disable) protection: not present! > Using x86 segment limits to approximate NX protection > > note: the NX patch will also protect against kernel-space code injection. > > all the other components of exec-shield are identical between NX and > non-NX: the brk area is non-executable, libraries and PIE binaries are > moved into the ascii-shield as much as possible, and all aspects of > the address space are randomized. > > Christoph Hellwig thought the patch was too big and included more > stuff than some folks would want. He asked, "Any chance to split this > up a bit? Having the pure non-exec stack (and maybe heap) would be > really nice while the randomization feature are a litte bit too much > security by obscurity for my taste." Joe Korty disagreed, "It's no > more security by obscurity than keeping your key secret is security by > obscurity. (One can think of the randomization as a white-noise key)." > Nevertheless, Ingo posted a new patch with the randomization code > removed. But he added, "but i still think randomization is useful as a > last-resort barrier, against worm-alike mass attacks. There's a huge > difference between a 1-packet infection and a 2-hour brute-force > search over broadband, in terms of the 'economy' of worms." > > > > > -- Camm Maguire camm@xxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================== "The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens." -- Baha'u'llah