Subject: Re: Cut-Copy/Paste behavior - msg#00072

Previous Message by Date: click to view message preview

Re: Cut & Paste Documentation

Jay Smith wrote about Cut & Paste and Documentation: > Maybe we better leave this one alone. No - don't leave it alone! We've uncovered a real genuine Linux annoyance that is too sensitive for the Linux geeks. They're really starting to thrash about trying to defend their morally correct mouse/technique/man pages position, and trying to clarify our abysmal, shameful, desktop ignorance. All the irritated feedback from the offended Linux geeks shows that this is a really sensitive issue for Linux enthusiasts who are trying to defend the dreadful (as in really stupid and thoughtless) how-to Cut & Paste behaviour of Linux. The all-time winner for the defense of really annoying Linux-specific methods is the following excerpt from this forum: "The 'man' pages come in 'troff' format, so you easily create a PDF file from them. (or HTML if you must) The HOWTO's and Manuals come in SGML which if also easy to convert after you installed the SGML tools." Don't "leave it alone" - go after these guys and tear them to shreds! Take no prisoners! It's been proven here on this forum beyond any doubt that the truly annoying Linux Cut & Paste model is broken and needs to be fixed, regardless of what the geek defenders say! Although the attackers and defenders are equal in numbers, the Yays (Yes, Cut & Paste is annoying) win with the clarity and honesty of their examples of truly annoying Linux behaviour. The Nays (No, nothing is wrong with Cut & Paste or man pages) lose because they're now reduced to mean insults and name-calling, and we should drive them over the cliff onto the rocks below before they have a chance to regroup. If Linux doesn't fix this stuff, it's toast. RJ Burke

Next Message by Date: click to view message preview

Re: Cut-Copy/Paste behavior

Jay: Replies are in-line: On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 16:31, Jay Smith wrote: > Lawrence, > > I do have a complicated situation which I have tried spell out, but may not > have been contained in a reply-to-reply that you were reading. > > I hope this answers your questions.... > > Our *server* is running RH 8. We use Gnome 1.2. > > Our *workstations* are Windows 95 PCs. We view linux applications and > terminals through Xwindowing provided by Cygwin which is running on the > Windows 95. The Cygwin build includes xwinclip which is a copy-cut/paste > facility that allows cut-copy/paste between all the linux programs and > between the linux programs and the Windows programs (very nice!). > > Because of this "layering", I am not sure which configuration is in control > of the mouse operations (Windows95, Gnome, server settings, Cygwin, etc.). > > The mice are MS Intellimouse 1.2A wheel mice. > > The linux applications are varied, but the problem is identical with them > all. The browser, not that it matters, is Mozilla 1.2. It only matters if this bug you keep mentioning is fixed in a version after Mozilla 1.2. Mozilla 1.5 is the latest version. I'm using Firebird, which is based on Mozilla 1.4. > You instructed me to go to "Programs->Preferences->Mouse". My gnome > desktop does not have that exact setting, but one similar enough. The > setting was set to generic. I have changed it to MS Intellimouse PS2 > (closest thing, but nothing about version number or the wheel) and > clicked the "emulate 3 button mouse" checkbox. I exited the gnome desktop > and saved the configuration. THIS DID NOT CHANGE ANYTHING when the desktop > was restarted. OK. By Programs, I meant the Red Hat on your Panel. The Microsoft Intellimouse is the mouse with a wheel that is also the middle button. If you press on the wheel, it clicks, just like a regular button. Don't click emulate 3 button mouse, because that means ignore the middle button, but pretend that pressing the left and right buttons simultaneously is the equivalent of the middle button. So try again, but unselect the emulate 3 button mouse checkbox. > > I am not sure that the problem is necessarily correctly understood by you > and others. > > In my mind, the problem does not have to do with PASTING, it has to do with > SELECTION -- it has to do with what gets put into the buffer. > > For an example using gnome terminals, get up two gnome terminals and type > some junk on the command lines of each. In one terminal (the source) use > the left mouse button to highlight some text; just that, highlight some > text. Go to the other terminal (the target) and highlight some text that > the target that you want to replace using text from the source. Using the > terminal's menu then do Edit-->Paste. On my system, the target's (not the > source's) text will be pasted into the target. None of this used the > keyboard. > > This example is complicated because in my gnome terminals, when I highlight > something, the highlighting immediately disappears (and what is highlighted > goes into some buffer). Even though the Edit menu has a Copy option, it is > grayed out and I can't find a way to get at it. If I left-drag to > highlight something, hold the left mouse button, and at the same time click > the right mouse button, I get a context menu in which copy *is* available. > However, it does not copy -- or at least if it does copy into some buffer, > the Edit-->Paste or context menu Paste does not paste. So fix your mouse, and try again, but use the middle button (wheel) to paste. You will find that it works like you want it to. I've tried it several times and it always works. If you are consistent, and use Control-Shift-C to copy and Control-Shift-V to paste, you will find that will also work (with the gnome-terminals). > On the other hand if I am in Mozilla 1.2, and do something like > this with two different Compose windows, the left-drag highlighting DOES > stay highlighted. If you highlight something in one window and then change > focus to another window and highlight text you want to replace and then use > the Edit-->Paste menu option the MOST RECENTLY highlighted text is what > will be pasted. In other words, I have not found a method to paste INTO > HIGHLIGHTED text. I use Evolution for email. If I have two compose windows open, and I select text in one with Control-C, then highlight text in the other with the mouse, and then paste it with Control-V, it replaces the selected text (note that you MUST use Control-V here, if you use the middle button, it simply inserts the text instead of replacing the selected text). Try that in Mozilla Composer. If it doesn't work, perhaps switching to Evolution for email would make you happier. > I hope that this helps to explain, but I think it is time to drop this. I > am surely annoying everybody. You're not annoying me (RJ Burke is, though:-)). I'm simply trying to help you. Generally, with Linux, you can find something that works. The problem is sometimes that there are (paradoxically, perhaps) too many choices, and it is difficult to try everything yourself. > Jay > > > Lawrence MacIntyre wrote: > > Jay: > > > > Each time I read one of your messages, I try to reproduce your problem, > > and I cannot do so. Now it is true that if you insist on using the > > windows ^C ^V method, that some applications don't support that and your > > mileage may vary. However, if you look at the documentation, or even > > just try to use the menus, for example gnome-terminal uses > > shift-control-c to copy and shift-control-v to paste, since control c > > and control v are valid characters in terminals, you will find that it > > all just works. I've tried SciTE, Gnome-terminal, firebird, evolution, > > and I can cut and paste from one application to another with no problems > > whatsoever using the left and middle mouse buttons and even the correct > > characters for that application (see above). I submit that your mouse > > is configured incorrectly. Did you have a different mouse when you > > installed linux and then switch it out without changing your > > configuration? I installed RH 8 and I have a Microsoft Intellimouse > > 1.2A, and it automatically configured it correctly. If you change it, > > you have to go to the Programs->Preferences->Mouse menu and change the > > mouse type. You would have to do the same thing with Windows. > > > > Is it possible that the application you have chosen as your source > > doesn't support control-c and control-v? My browser (Firebird 0.6.1) > > uses the Mozilla 1.4 Sources. Perhaps you have an old version of the > > browser? Which Linux are you using? Which Browser (including > > version)? When you run the Mouse Configuration application (see above), > > what mouse does it think you have? > > > > On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 15:16, Jay Smith wrote: > > > >>Daniel, > >> > >>What I don't understand (because my 2-button + wheel/button mouse is not > >>working [configured?] properly) is: Since simply highlighting text DOES put > >>content into *some* buffer, does using the middle mouse button to do the > >>pasting, cause the *correct* content to be pasted? > >> > >>What I mean is that if I get focus on the source window and it has > >>highlighted text and I then get focus on the target window and it also has > >>some ALREADY highlighted text, the highlighted text in the target window > >>goes into *some* buffer. > >> > >>I don't know if the buffer it is going into is the "middle button paste > >>buffer" or some other buffer. > >> > >>I do know, however, that if I get focus on the target window and do a > >>"control v", the most recently highlighted content will get pasted. If the > >>*target* window already had highlighted content (or if you highlight > >>something in the target window because you want to replace it when you > >>paste) then it is the highlighted text from the TARGET window that will get > >>pasted INSTEAD of the correct text from the SOURCE window. > >> > >>Am I making any sense? > >> > >>Maybe we better leave this one alone. > >> > >>Jay > >> > >>Daniel C. von Asmuth wrote: > >> > >>>Thus quoth Reilly Burke on Sun, Sep 07, 2003 at 06:25:56PM -0700: > >>> > >>> > >>>>I think the point of this thread is that Linux is really annoying on the > >>>>subject of "cut & paste". Sure we can all run out and buy several > >>>>cartons of mouses to refit the office, but wouldn't it be easier if > >>>>Linux developers had taken the time to agree on a standard "cut & paste" > >>>>method like Windows has done? The wheel mouse method works within one > >>> > >>> > >>>Unix mice have three buttons and the standard paste operation is by > >>>pushing the middle button. It is certainly annoying having to use > >>>equipment that does not follow this handy convention. (like Macintoshes) > >>> > >>>Kind regards, > >>> > >>> > >>>Daniel von Asmuth > >>> > >>> -- Lawrence MacIntyre 865.574.8696 lpz-1Heg1YXhbW8@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Oak Ridge National Laboratory High Performance Information Infrastructure Technology Group signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Previous Message by Thread: click to view message preview

Re: Cut-Copy/Paste behavior

Jay: Each time I read one of your messages, I try to reproduce your problem, and I cannot do so. Now it is true that if you insist on using the windows ^C ^V method, that some applications don't support that and your mileage may vary. However, if you look at the documentation, or even just try to use the menus, for example gnome-terminal uses shift-control-c to copy and shift-control-v to paste, since control c and control v are valid characters in terminals, you will find that it all just works. I've tried SciTE, Gnome-terminal, firebird, evolution, and I can cut and paste from one application to another with no problems whatsoever using the left and middle mouse buttons and even the correct characters for that application (see above). I submit that your mouse is configured incorrectly. Did you have a different mouse when you installed linux and then switch it out without changing your configuration? I installed RH 8 and I have a Microsoft Intellimouse 1.2A, and it automatically configured it correctly. If you change it, you have to go to the Programs->Preferences->Mouse menu and change the mouse type. You would have to do the same thing with Windows. Is it possible that the application you have chosen as your source doesn't support control-c and control-v? My browser (Firebird 0.6.1) uses the Mozilla 1.4 Sources. Perhaps you have an old version of the browser? Which Linux are you using? Which Browser (including version)? When you run the Mouse Configuration application (see above), what mouse does it think you have? On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 15:16, Jay Smith wrote: > Daniel, > > What I don't understand (because my 2-button + wheel/button mouse is not > working [configured?] properly) is: Since simply highlighting text DOES put > content into *some* buffer, does using the middle mouse button to do the > pasting, cause the *correct* content to be pasted? > > What I mean is that if I get focus on the source window and it has > highlighted text and I then get focus on the target window and it also has > some ALREADY highlighted text, the highlighted text in the target window > goes into *some* buffer. > > I don't know if the buffer it is going into is the "middle button paste > buffer" or some other buffer. > > I do know, however, that if I get focus on the target window and do a > "control v", the most recently highlighted content will get pasted. If the > *target* window already had highlighted content (or if you highlight > something in the target window because you want to replace it when you > paste) then it is the highlighted text from the TARGET window that will get > pasted INSTEAD of the correct text from the SOURCE window. > > Am I making any sense? > > Maybe we better leave this one alone. > > Jay > > Daniel C. von Asmuth wrote: > > Thus quoth Reilly Burke on Sun, Sep 07, 2003 at 06:25:56PM -0700: > > > >>I think the point of this thread is that Linux is really annoying on the > >>subject of "cut & paste". Sure we can all run out and buy several > >>cartons of mouses to refit the office, but wouldn't it be easier if > >>Linux developers had taken the time to agree on a standard "cut & paste" > >>method like Windows has done? The wheel mouse method works within one > > > > > > Unix mice have three buttons and the standard paste operation is by > > pushing the middle button. It is certainly annoying having to use > > equipment that does not follow this handy convention. (like Macintoshes) > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Daniel von Asmuth > > > > -- Lawrence MacIntyre 865.574.8696 lpz-1Heg1YXhbW8@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Oak Ridge National Laboratory High Performance Information Infrastructure Technology Group signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Next Message by Thread: click to view message preview

Re: Cut-Copy/Paste behavior

Jay: Replies are in-line: On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 16:31, Jay Smith wrote: > Lawrence, > > I do have a complicated situation which I have tried spell out, but may not > have been contained in a reply-to-reply that you were reading. > > I hope this answers your questions.... > > Our *server* is running RH 8. We use Gnome 1.2. > > Our *workstations* are Windows 95 PCs. We view linux applications and > terminals through Xwindowing provided by Cygwin which is running on the > Windows 95. The Cygwin build includes xwinclip which is a copy-cut/paste > facility that allows cut-copy/paste between all the linux programs and > between the linux programs and the Windows programs (very nice!). > > Because of this "layering", I am not sure which configuration is in control > of the mouse operations (Windows95, Gnome, server settings, Cygwin, etc.). > > The mice are MS Intellimouse 1.2A wheel mice. > > The linux applications are varied, but the problem is identical with them > all. The browser, not that it matters, is Mozilla 1.2. It only matters if this bug you keep mentioning is fixed in a version after Mozilla 1.2. Mozilla 1.5 is the latest version. I'm using Firebird, which is based on Mozilla 1.4. > You instructed me to go to "Programs->Preferences->Mouse". My gnome > desktop does not have that exact setting, but one similar enough. The > setting was set to generic. I have changed it to MS Intellimouse PS2 > (closest thing, but nothing about version number or the wheel) and > clicked the "emulate 3 button mouse" checkbox. I exited the gnome desktop > and saved the configuration. THIS DID NOT CHANGE ANYTHING when the desktop > was restarted. OK. By Programs, I meant the Red Hat on your Panel. The Microsoft Intellimouse is the mouse with a wheel that is also the middle button. If you press on the wheel, it clicks, just like a regular button. Don't click emulate 3 button mouse, because that means ignore the middle button, but pretend that pressing the left and right buttons simultaneously is the equivalent of the middle button. So try again, but unselect the emulate 3 button mouse checkbox. > > I am not sure that the problem is necessarily correctly understood by you > and others. > > In my mind, the problem does not have to do with PASTING, it has to do with > SELECTION -- it has to do with what gets put into the buffer. > > For an example using gnome terminals, get up two gnome terminals and type > some junk on the command lines of each. In one terminal (the source) use > the left mouse button to highlight some text; just that, highlight some > text. Go to the other terminal (the target) and highlight some text that > the target that you want to replace using text from the source. Using the > terminal's menu then do Edit-->Paste. On my system, the target's (not the > source's) text will be pasted into the target. None of this used the > keyboard. > > This example is complicated because in my gnome terminals, when I highlight > something, the highlighting immediately disappears (and what is highlighted > goes into some buffer). Even though the Edit menu has a Copy option, it is > grayed out and I can't find a way to get at it. If I left-drag to > highlight something, hold the left mouse button, and at the same time click > the right mouse button, I get a context menu in which copy *is* available. > However, it does not copy -- or at least if it does copy into some buffer, > the Edit-->Paste or context menu Paste does not paste. So fix your mouse, and try again, but use the middle button (wheel) to paste. You will find that it works like you want it to. I've tried it several times and it always works. If you are consistent, and use Control-Shift-C to copy and Control-Shift-V to paste, you will find that will also work (with the gnome-terminals). > On the other hand if I am in Mozilla 1.2, and do something like > this with two different Compose windows, the left-drag highlighting DOES > stay highlighted. If you highlight something in one window and then change > focus to another window and highlight text you want to replace and then use > the Edit-->Paste menu option the MOST RECENTLY highlighted text is what > will be pasted. In other words, I have not found a method to paste INTO > HIGHLIGHTED text. I use Evolution for email. If I have two compose windows open, and I select text in one with Control-C, then highlight text in the other with the mouse, and then paste it with Control-V, it replaces the selected text (note that you MUST use Control-V here, if you use the middle button, it simply inserts the text instead of replacing the selected text). Try that in Mozilla Composer. If it doesn't work, perhaps switching to Evolution for email would make you happier. > I hope that this helps to explain, but I think it is time to drop this. I > am surely annoying everybody. You're not annoying me (RJ Burke is, though:-)). I'm simply trying to help you. Generally, with Linux, you can find something that works. The problem is sometimes that there are (paradoxically, perhaps) too many choices, and it is difficult to try everything yourself. > Jay > > > Lawrence MacIntyre wrote: > > Jay: > > > > Each time I read one of your messages, I try to reproduce your problem, > > and I cannot do so. Now it is true that if you insist on using the > > windows ^C ^V method, that some applications don't support that and your > > mileage may vary. However, if you look at the documentation, or even > > just try to use the menus, for example gnome-terminal uses > > shift-control-c to copy and shift-control-v to paste, since control c > > and control v are valid characters in terminals, you will find that it > > all just works. I've tried SciTE, Gnome-terminal, firebird, evolution, > > and I can cut and paste from one application to another with no problems > > whatsoever using the left and middle mouse buttons and even the correct > > characters for that application (see above). I submit that your mouse > > is configured incorrectly. Did you have a different mouse when you > > installed linux and then switch it out without changing your > > configuration? I installed RH 8 and I have a Microsoft Intellimouse > > 1.2A, and it automatically configured it correctly. If you change it, > > you have to go to the Programs->Preferences->Mouse menu and change the > > mouse type. You would have to do the same thing with Windows. > > > > Is it possible that the application you have chosen as your source > > doesn't support control-c and control-v? My browser (Firebird 0.6.1) > > uses the Mozilla 1.4 Sources. Perhaps you have an old version of the > > browser? Which Linux are you using? Which Browser (including > > version)? When you run the Mouse Configuration application (see above), > > what mouse does it think you have? > > > > On Tue, 2003-09-09 at 15:16, Jay Smith wrote: > > > >>Daniel, > >> > >>What I don't understand (because my 2-button + wheel/button mouse is not > >>working [configured?] properly) is: Since simply highlighting text DOES put > >>content into *some* buffer, does using the middle mouse button to do the > >>pasting, cause the *correct* content to be pasted? > >> > >>What I mean is that if I get focus on the source window and it has > >>highlighted text and I then get focus on the target window and it also has > >>some ALREADY highlighted text, the highlighted text in the target window > >>goes into *some* buffer. > >> > >>I don't know if the buffer it is going into is the "middle button paste > >>buffer" or some other buffer. > >> > >>I do know, however, that if I get focus on the target window and do a > >>"control v", the most recently highlighted content will get pasted. If the > >>*target* window already had highlighted content (or if you highlight > >>something in the target window because you want to replace it when you > >>paste) then it is the highlighted text from the TARGET window that will get > >>pasted INSTEAD of the correct text from the SOURCE window. > >> > >>Am I making any sense? > >> > >>Maybe we better leave this one alone. > >> > >>Jay > >> > >>Daniel C. von Asmuth wrote: > >> > >>>Thus quoth Reilly Burke on Sun, Sep 07, 2003 at 06:25:56PM -0700: > >>> > >>> > >>>>I think the point of this thread is that Linux is really annoying on the > >>>>subject of "cut & paste". Sure we can all run out and buy several > >>>>cartons of mouses to refit the office, but wouldn't it be easier if > >>>>Linux developers had taken the time to agree on a standard "cut & paste" > >>>>method like Windows has done? The wheel mouse method works within one > >>> > >>> > >>>Unix mice have three buttons and the standard paste operation is by > >>>pushing the middle button. It is certainly annoying having to use > >>>equipment that does not follow this handy convention. (like Macintoshes) > >>> > >>>Kind regards, > >>> > >>> > >>>Daniel von Asmuth > >>> > >>> -- Lawrence MacIntyre 865.574.8696 lpz-1Heg1YXhbW8@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Oak Ridge National Laboratory High Performance Information Infrastructure Technology Group signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part