Thank you for this informative reply.
So I was correct on my assumption that it is hard to run CDC/FP/Personal
Profile on a Palm :-)
I agree that most developers do want to drop in their PJava code.
I think IBMs virtual machine comment was interesting. If you are using
different Java Virtual Machines then this WILL result in different threading
models.
For example even the Monty VM has a different threading model to the KVM.
This leads unfortunately to UNPORTABLE code (see posting from Nokia 6600
developers)
So it is great that IBM J9 can run CDC but I doubt the code will run the
same as on the Zaurus, A760 or Internet Explorer Personal Java Applets.
The future is ultimately in a totally portable CDC environment. Surely this
means locking down the Virtual Machine though doesn't it?
I thought originally that CDC ran through a CVM?
We really will loose portability if people all use different Virtual
Machines for their CDC ports.
Finally my comment about PDA profile was only that its not just for PDAs.
Its as useful on a SmartPhone and hence its inclusion on the Symbian 7.0
roadmap.
Finally it seems that the original PDA profile functionality is being
replaced with custom UIs. I would argue that it is better to lock down one
UI rather than everyone using different ones. Why? It just takes up so much
space on the device memory.
I hear a lot of people talking about Eclipse, but what about Truffle? Or a
small subset of Swing, after all Swing is only AWT based after all?
Peter
From: Nathanial Freitas <Nathanial.Freitas@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: A mailing list for KVM discussion <KVM-INTEREST@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: KVM-INTEREST@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Why MIDP, not PP? (was Re: MIDP 2.0 beta for palmOne devices
now available)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:15:01 -0800
Peter, and all,
I've commented on this before in this forum, as well as the Palm Java
Forum, and I will do it again. Aside from fundamentally believe its better
to scale up MIDP/CLDC then scale down PP/CDC (which was originally designed
for always connected set-top boxes), there are two gating technical reasons
we (palmOne) went with the profiles and configuration that we did:
1) Palm OS 4.x and 5.x do not support multiple threads within an
application or multiple tasks or processes within the OS.
-IBM's green threads implementations may work well enough for MIDP/CLDC,
but once people started trying to drop their Java 1.1 code onto a device
(which is honestly what most people want PP/CDC for), they would most
likely end up having to rework their threading model.
2) Palm OS native widget/windowing system is not rich enough to support
AWT.
-Palm has a very simple windowing toolkit that has surprisingly worked out
to be very usable by many users. However, it ends up that since its not
Motif/Win32/QT-like it doesn't match up well against AWT. The Palm Java
team didn't have the time or bandwidth to propose the implementation of an
entirely new AWT-like windowing toolkit for Palm OS.
So, the choice was have a very robust, high performance, high res version
of MIDP/CLDC, or have a very mediocre CDC/PP. We obvisouly went with the
former.
As for PDA Profile's optional packages, we are very excited about these,
and hope to see an implementation of them soon from IBM.
We are also working on a way to allow third-parties to extend the virtual
machine in a secure, compliant way, so that others can add new JSRs and
capabilities to our base platform without having to ship a new VM.
Finally, supporting a more advanced UI than LCDUI is also on the top of our
mind. We've released to sample projects with source code of a Table widget,
as well as a DrawCanvas shape rendering container which can be used for a
variety of UIs
(http://pluggedin.palm.com/regac/pluggedin/JavaDevTips.jsp#Samples).
We are also very excited about the open-source SyncLast UI toolkit
available from www.synclast.com as it provides a very rich way to build
standard Form-like UIs, with pixel-level placement. And if anyone out there
is interested in porting Eclipse.org's SWT to our runtime, please get in
touch with me!
Regards,
Nathan Freitas
Senior Manager, Java
palmOne
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Rogers [mailto:peterzrogers@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wed 12/17/2003 11:45 AM
To: KVM-INTEREST@xxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc:
Subject: Re: Why MIDP, not PP? (was Re: MIDP 2.0 beta for palmOne
devices now available)
>IBM's J9 is compliant on CDC, Foundation and Personal Profile on PocketPC
>2002.
Ah yes! There are actually a few Pocket PC options :-)
As for the PDA profile though how can anyone honestly argue that File
management is more useful on a PDA than a SmartPhone??? Most SmartPhones
are
PDAs for heavens sake!
I think that the File Management API and PIM API are JUST as useful on PDA
or SmartPhone to be quite fair on this one.
The original idea of the PDA profile if you remember was to add a Personal
Java like UI to the Palm. Then when MIDP 2.0 came on the screen that was
dropped.
So we ended up with a pair of generic file and PIM access APIs.
The amusing thing is I reckon the PDA profile will arrive on SmartPhones
FIRST through later Symbian 7.0 handsets.
I put my flame proof clothes on in anticipation of the reply ;-) LOL
Peter
>From: Ken Walker <Ken_Walker@xxxxxxxxxx>
>Reply-To: A mailing list for KVM discussion <KVM-INTEREST@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: KVM-INTEREST@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: Why MIDP, not PP? (was Re: MIDP 2.0 beta for palmOne devices
>now available)
>Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 11:04:12 -0500
>
> > The only CDC option at the moment is on Linux.
>
>IBM's J9 is compliant on CDC, Foundation and Personal Profile on PocketPC
>2002.
>
>I also beg to differ on the JSR-075 optional packages. They are very much
>aimed at PDA's. The
>FileConnection API's will be immensely useful for accessing removable
meda
>in a standard way, and
>the PIM API's are flexible enough to support a cell phones limited PIM as
>well as feature (or field)
>rich implementations on PocketPC or Tungsten T3's (The newer palmOne
>devices have greatly extended the
>traditional PIM applications).
>
>----
>Ken Walker, J9 Class Library Team Leader
>IBM Ottawa Lab
>ken_walker@xxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
>Peter Rogers <peterzrogers@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent by: A mailing list for KVM discussion <KVM-INTEREST@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>12/17/2003 09:54 AM
>Please respond to
>A mailing list for KVM discussion
>
>
>To
>KVM-INTEREST@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>cc
>
>Subject
>Re: Why MIDP, not PP? (was Re: MIDP 2.0 beta for palmOne devices now
>available)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>You honestly think you can run CDC on a Palm???
>
>I think if mobile vendors *could* run CDC at the moment then they would
>be!
>
>The only CDC option at the moment is on Linux.
>
>I know the Zaurus has CDC/FP/PP but I do not know if the spanky new
>Motorola
>A760 does. It could do!
>
>So outside of Linux there is no real CDC offering.
>
>I know that Personal Profile Basis is being examined by many vendors but
>for
>my money this is not nearly as atractive as Personal Profile. Why? Well
>take
>Personal Java and remove Applets and audio. Hmmm.
>
>As for PDA profile this has become a completely confusing state of
>affairs.
>
>The PDA profile per say no longer exists. Now there are two JSRs aimed at
>File Management and PIM management. BOTH of these JSRs to be honest are
of
>more use on a SmartPhone than a Palm. So the PDA profile is no longer
>targetted at the PDA at all! What a waste!!! PDAs SHOULD have their own
>JSR
>but this has now appeared on the Symbian 7.0 long term road map.
>
>Peter
>
> >From: Hector Berna <hector.berna@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >Reply-To: A mailing list for KVM discussion <KVM-INTEREST@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >To: KVM-INTEREST@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: Re: Why MIDP, not PP? (was Re: MIDP 2.0 beta for palmOne
devices
> >now available)
> >Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:21:59 +0100
> >
> >Or even only support for Personal Java will be welcome.
> >
> >I know that Personal Java is "End Of Life", but it is better for me
than
> >MIDP.
> >
> >Hector
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark Balbes
> > <mark@xxxxxxxxxx> Para:
> >KVM-INTEREST@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Enviado por: A cc:
> > mailing list for cco:
> > KVM discussion Asunto: Why MIDP, not
>PP?
> >(was Re: MIDP 2.0 beta for palmOne devices now available)
> > <KVM-INTEREST@JAV
> > A.SUN.COM>
> >
> >
> > 17/12/2003 15:08
> > Por favor,
> > responda a A
> > mailing list for
> > KVM discussion
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >I'm curious why Palm is putting so much emphasis on MIDP. I would think
> >that the
> >Personal Profile with the PDA optional APIs would be a better fit for
>their
> >new devices.
> >
> >Anybody have any insight into this?
> >
> >Mark Balbes
> >mark@xxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:06:01 -0500, Eric Giguere
> ><ericgiguere@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > >FYI, palmOne has released a beta MIDP 2.0/CLDC 1.1 environment.
> >
>
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