|
osdir.com mailing list archive |
|
Subject: Re: Re: USE flags and stages 1 and 2 - msg#00017List: linux.gentoo.releng> On Monday, October 31, 2005 13:09, Chris Gianelloni wrote: > > 2. Inform users that only stage3 will be supported > > 3. Change the documentation to recommend users not change USE flags > > until after the completion of "emerge -e system" > > These two options seem to be the most reasonable. If a user doesn't know how > to deploy a system using stage one or two, they should either be instructed > to use stage three, or be given alternate (more cautious) instructions for > the earlier stages. If, on the other hand, the person is familiar with the > inner workings of Gentoo and its packages, they would be likely to ignore the > instructions anyway. We also get bug reports from users using genkernel to build their own CDs using --unionfs-dev, which we don't even list anywhere in the documentation because we know it is broken and it says as much when you use it. The plain and simple truth is that if we allow it *at all* then we will be held responsible for what happens when a user tries to use it, whether they have fore-knowledge of the brokenness or not. > > In pretty much every case, the real answer is "quit using stage1 if you > > don't know what you're doing" but unfortunately, we're going to get the > > pointless "but Gentoo is about choice" "argument" that really has no > > bearing on the truth of what is Gentoo. > > I agree. A section of documentation could be created to explain that concept, > and bugs that were filed as a result of inexperience could then be closed and > redirected to the documentation. I am currently working to have a <warn> section added to the Handbook stating that we highly recommend that users not touch stages 1 or 2. > I use USE="-*" in make.conf for all of my deployments because I don't want > the > system's USE flags to be modified by Gentoo developers; I also don't have any > difficulty deploying such systems. Unfortunately, I see many individuals that > will leap to configure their systems in ways that cannot be maintained. In > those cases, the Gentoo developers should not be the ones to correct the > errors. I agree. On the other side of the coin, it is exactly *because* of -* that we have such hacks like nocxx in USE. USE flags are designed for enabling optional support. We should not have no* USE flags. While I personally don't really care either way, it is something that we are currently *required* to do because we have no way to ensure that it will be enabled by default, thanks to -*. Funny enough, I use -* for the same reason as you, but then came to find out about auto-use, and am now glad that I've always used -* myself. ;] -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux
Thread at a glance:
Previous Message by Date: click to view message previewRe: USE flags and stages 1 and 2On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 17:25 -0500, Seemant Kulleen wrote: > Here's my take. The purpose of stage1 is to get you to stage2. Stage > 1's psychological purpose is "look ma, I can boostrap". If we go to two > stages, take out 1, and let the emerge -e system step be the one that > the customisation starts at (including things like changing > /etc/portage/profile/virtuals to change virtual/editor to vim or emacs > or blah). You don't do any of that in stage1, it's stage2 that all the > action actually happens. The bugs I am receiving are all in the "emerge -e system" step due to requirements on configured kernels and improper dependency tracking. The dependency issue isn't going to resolve itself, but there is nothing to resolve the "kernel-dependent packages in system" problem other than not having such a broken system to begin with for the user. > Having said that, you will see a lot of noise about wanting stage1's. > Stage 3 has the advantage of speed, but the disadvantage of defaults > like nano (which then need to be expressly replaced). Agreed. There are some drawbacks, but I've found that these are still minimal compared to compiling an entire USE="bootstrap" toolchain right before compiling the entire "system" target, including toolchain, all over again. > Anyway, I don't think I've added any help in one direction or another, > just putting my thoughts out there. They're very much appreciated. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part Previous Message by Thread: click to view message previewRe: USE flags and stages 1 and 2On Monday, October 31, 2005 13:09, Chris Gianelloni wrote: > 2. Inform users that only stage3 will be supported > 3. Change the documentation to recommend users not change USE flags > until after the completion of "emerge -e system" These two options seem to be the most reasonable. If a user doesn't know how to deploy a system using stage one or two, they should either be instructed to use stage three, or be given alternate (more cautious) instructions for the earlier stages. If, on the other hand, the person is familiar with the inner workings of Gentoo and its packages, they would be likely to ignore the instructions anyway. > In pretty much every case, the real answer is "quit using stage1 if you > don't know what you're doing" but unfortunately, we're going to get the > pointless "but Gentoo is about choice" "argument" that really has no > bearing on the truth of what is Gentoo. I agree. A section of documentation could be created to explain that concept, and bugs that were filed as a result of inexperience could then be closed and redirected to the documentation. I use USE="-*" in make.conf for all of my deployments because I don't want the system's USE flags to be modified by Gentoo developers; I also don't have any difficulty deploying such systems. Unfortunately, I see many individuals that will leap to configure their systems in ways that cannot be maintained. In those cases, the Gentoo developers should not be the ones to correct the errors. -- Anthony Gorecki Ectro-Linux Foundation pgpR8d91lZfom.pgp Description: PGP signature Loading Comments...
|
|
