Subject: Re: grammar - msg#00108

Previous Message by Date: click to view message preview

Re: To teach grammar or not?

> > Further to my previous posting - I was expressly instructed not to spend classroom time on grammar, just encourage speaking. So, I guess I'm not part of the "don't we all"!! > > Gail Schacter > I think another thing to consider is where the issuers of these instructions are coming from (I just thought as I wrote this that the present continuous here is being used for reasons far removed from tense or aspect). Many older Chinese learned spoken English through audiolingual or situational methodology grafted on to their grammar translation approach with written English. It was a process of repetition, chanting even, and even the free practice once the utterance was well learned was merely a matter of saying the prepared gobbet without a direct prompt from the teacher. In this situation the teacher doesn't need to teach grammar. The teacher just gives model utterances and the students learn them as such. There's some implicit grammar teaching with substitution drills but it's so controlled it doesn't need explicit teaching. If you are teaching oral English for genuine communication then you cannot do it without grammar points arising and although you may not be teaching by referring to rules, any correction on your part is grammar based. Dick Tibbetts ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Get to your groups with one click. Know instantly when new email arrives http://us.click.yahoo.com/.7bhrC/MGxNAA/yQLSAA/IWOolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> TEFLChina Rules & Help ---> http://wikigogy.org/TEFLChina ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Next Message by Date: click to view message preview

Re: grammar

--- Ria Smit <tryria-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > I never taught grammar that was not used in the > lesson, nor made lessons around grammar points. > Oral English is to get them to talk and the Chinese > teachers know a lot more grammar than I do. > And yet they usually don't speak so well, do they? Chinese grammar teachers go rushing through the grammar book teaching all kinds of complicated grammar, explaining it all in Chinese, not English, and at the end of the lesson the students can perhaps do gap fill exercises but are very weak on correct usage. Some of my sophomore students for example are poor on the usage of the past simple. Their grammar teachers didn't explain the uses, only the form, and did little on it's application. That's where i think I come in. Russ Taylor Russ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Protect your PC from spy ware with award winning anti spy technology. It's free. http://us.click.yahoo.com/97bhrC/LGxNAA/yQLSAA/IWOolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> TEFLChina Rules & Help ---> http://wikigogy.org/TEFLChina ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Previous Message by Thread: click to view message preview

Re: learn Mandrin while teaching ESL..a no, no??

MODERATOR NOTE: This is a very informative post, but starts to move from the pedagogy aspect of this list to a "life in China" thread which is more appropriate on the TEFLChinaLIFE list. Could people who want to respond to the non-pedagogy aspect either post to TEFLChinaLife or directly to the original poster? If you are responding directly on the classroom-oriented portions of the post/thread, then by all means post to this list. Thanks. ------------------------------------------------ Don wrote: >If the American attempts to learn Mandarin, then, > he/she will contaminate the spoken English ... > I just wonder if anyone else has experiened this > attitude or if I'm the one off base? Great point Don! When I first came here 6 years ago, my first school had a'no Chinese Language' classes for foreign teachers policy. Their rationale was that if I learned Chinese I "...would begin to use Chinese in class and the students would spend more time on correcting your poor Chinese instead of learning English". Since then I've worked in mostly "English Only" school environments or areas where not speaking Chinese is not a disadvantage. As such my Chinese language skills leave a lot to be desired. Don wrote: >Although Iv'e picked up over the > years just enuff Chinese words to get me in trouble, I realize I will never > get even Chinglish fluent with out more commitment than I'm willing > to give. May I suggest the excellent Pimsleur, "Mandarin for English Speakers" language series for 'oral fluency'? I suggest you purchase the program (I did, all three sets, still working through Vol 1) however, for the desperately needy it can be downloaded via P2P networks on a lesson by lesson, ad hoc and randomly accessible basis. Don wrote: > slant subjects to my learning Mandarin I would get ..."no, no Don, > you must stay English." ... Why? I asked. "You will hurt your English" > was the response. I was puzzled. ... The logic here: > > Americans are known to be only solo English fluent and that is > exactly what the Chinese desire as teachers ... Besides ..."only > Chinese have the ability to truly be fluent in Chinese and it's > many dielects." ... I was frankly flabbergasted at this mentality > ... They agreed that no laowai should ever become Mandarin fluent. > They would admire "a little fluency" but beyond that.....No! > > Is national face and fluency at work here? I think the answer you seek may lie in the following observations by Boye Lafayette De Mente, who writes in, Chinese Etiquette & Ethics in Business, 2ed. 2004. Although many cultured Chinese today may still regard Westerners as less cultured and uncivilised in some ways, it would probably be accurate to say that they now view foreigners as just different or alien. But there is the odd exception to this general rule. In the countryside, some Chinese equate being able to speak Chinese with being Chinese. Apparently this is because it is impossible for them to conceive of someone's being able to speak Chinese and without being Chinese - their foreign appearance notwithstanding. At the same time, the Chinese mind-set is so exclusive that the racially different foreigner can be born and rised in China, speak the language perfectly, thnk and behave exactly like a Chinese, and yet not be accepted as "belonging" in China, much less accepted as Chinese. The only Chinese is a Han Chinese. The most a Westernenrcan hope for is to be acceptedas a "true friend" of the Chnese. Because Westernerscan never "become" Chinese or achieve total acceptance, they can never feel fully at home in China... [p56] Being able to speak Chinese gives the foreigner a wonderful advantagein China, but knowledge of Chinese psychology must go along with knowledge of the language. Chinese-speaking foreigners must learn how to penetrate the psychological block many Chinese have ... Most are so conditioned to the idea that foreigners do not speak Chinese that when one does, they fail to understand. The ear and the brain are simly not connected. [p88] Don what are your Chinese-speaking ambitions? Just get by? oral/reading/writing fluency to some particular level? conversational usage? business usage? academic usage? instructional support? I guess it also depends on how long you plan to stay in China too. Having worked in compulsory English only teaching environments and others less extreem I can say that knowing a few Chinese words has helped in-so-far as progressing a lesson that has bogged down on less important points because a/some students did not understand a particular 'noun' - it's an expedincy thing. Having said that, I still would not recomend teachers to use Chinese in class as a tool for moving a class along. Ditto with Language assistants! Regards, Tsc Tempest DCA __________________________ People's Republic of China Zhuhai SEZ, Guang Dong ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Everything you need is one click away.  Make Yahoo! your home page now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AHchtC/4FxNAA/yQLSAA/IWOolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> TEFLChina Rules & Help ---> http://wikigogy.org/TEFLChina ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Next Message by Thread: click to view message preview

dictionary overuse

Re: It is recommended that in order to promote learner autonomy, teachers should raise students' awareness of the usefulness of a dictionary and help them develop dictionary skills. --- >This has been my latest "mission", and I start each class >with asking how many of the ss's have a dictionary with them, >which has upped the number considerably. >Gail Schacter In my opinion students use their dictionaries too much and invariably select the wrong word. Recently one of my third year English majors listed cantering as one of his hobbies when he obviously meant jogging! Nick ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Everything you need is one click away.  Make Yahoo! your home page now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AHchtC/4FxNAA/yQLSAA/IWOolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> TEFLChina Rules & Help ---> http://wikigogy.org/TEFLChina ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^