Subject: Ancient jewelry in Israel - msg#00531

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ill omened days

Dies  ater: The day after Kalends, Nones, or Ides, is, in each case, a day of ill omen. V. Ovid, Fasti I. 58; Varro, De Ling. Lat. 6,29; Aulus Gellius, 5.17; Macrobius, Sat. I. 16. 21 & 22.    EJM

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Re: Learn to Read Latin

Thanks for responding - and don't be too disheartened; my comments were, as I say, first impressions. After closer inspection of the books, I can say that my review *will* have several positive things to say about some important and thought-provoking points! Not least of these is the use of examples from a very wide selection of authors - I've always thought it slightly strange that many textbooks teach perfect Ciceronian Latin but give you little inkling of the often strikingly different language of authors of earlier and later centuries, or indeed of the distinctions between literary and sub-literary texts. I think that LTRL's examples have been very sensibly chosen and discussed to provide a much better picture of real Latin. Whilst I love some of the lighter comments (in particular, I shall be remembering to use the example of Elmer Fudd's "vewy" as a good way of explaining that tricky diphthong "eu"), I feel that all but the most able schoolchildren in Britain would find the approach less than stimulating. By the way, I should perhaps have made it clearer in what I said before that I am specifically looking at the book through the eyes of a *British* teacher, with only a broad knowledge of how things (and students) work across the pond. >From a British perspective, then, I think LTRL would work best as a guide either for those wishing to consolidate at university what they learnt at school (for which purpose I think it could be extremely useful), or for those taking a serious interest in learning the language at university or as adult students. (In any case, without a special UK edition [Athenaze-style] with the cases in the order Nom-Voc-Acc-Gen-Dat-Abl, the book won't sell many copies over here, I fear.**) All of which is to stress that I recommend all interested listmembers to supplement discussion here with autopsy of the books themselves. ** TAN: Memory fails me, and it's probably been discussed on the list before, but can someone confirm that the order with the Accusative between Dative and Ablative is the one usually used by ancient grammarians? In which case a study of how the cases ended up getting rearranged for British consumption would be an interesting one. N --- Drew Keller <akeller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Dear all, > > A friend of mine recently forwarded a series of > posts about our new > textbook Learn to Read Latin. They were a bit > disheartening, but > whaddya gonna do? At any rate, two issues raised in > those postings > deserve to be quickly addressed, and then if anyone > has any > questions for one of the horses' mouths (or another > part of their > anatomy), feel free to post me directly or on the > listserv, as you wish. > > First, on the weight of the book. No one apparently > noticed that the > workbook pages are PERFORATED. My students, and > some of the > middle-schoolers I know who are using the book, > simply tear out the > pages appropriate to a given chapter and leave the > rest of the > workbook at home. Most thirteen-year-olds figure > this out on their > own, but it wasn't clear that anyone on the list > had. This, of course, > HALVES the weight of the books. > > Second, it is true that there is no real Latin in > Chapter 1 (not until > Chapter 2), but it is also true that "real > Latin?i.e. unabridged > Latin?usually can't be done with the the noun alone. > We also happen > to emphasize learning syntactical terminology. We > believe that it is > helpful to students in many, many ways, and we don't > underestimate > students: we believe they can be taught much more > than they often > are, and what it requires is teaching and a book > that is clear and > rewards learning. I wonder what it would be like if > middle-school, > high-school, and college chemistry teachers tried to > teach chemistry > without terminology. ("An atom is made up of one or > two kinds of > bigger things and then these little tiny things that > go around the bigger > things real fast; and the bigger things are of two > kinds..." > > We DID however make an effort to write Latin > sentences that > constantly borrowed and reflect real Latin usage and > word order. (For > this we made considerable use of the TLL CD-ROM.) > There are more > than 80 such in Chapter 2 alone, more than anyone, I > think, could ever > use?and certainly enough for homework, class work, > and > one-on-one work (not to mention several more for > quizzes, etc.). The > book is designed to wean students from made-up Latin > as early as it > is actually possible. > > Since reading in Latin word order is THE goal of the > book > (emphasized in the discussion of Latin word order in > Chapter 2 and > then throughout the book), we do not believe in > using abridged Latin > and passing it off as real Latin or supposed ancient > quotes (festina > lente, et tu Brute) and passing them off as real or > sentences taken out > of context (nil sine labore...) and passing them off > as Latin morality > tales. We sought to create a flexible book that > would allow a willing > teacher to use it in a variety of ways according to > their own desires. > Hence, there are literally hundreds and hundreds of > passages, short > and long, of poetry and prose of most authors > ranging from Ennius to > Macrobius but focussed in the classical period. > > I mail this because the impression received from the > group of e-mails > I was sent by my former colleague indicate that only > a cursory look had > been given to the book, and I didn't think it > deserved that. > > On the other hand, well-meaning teachers may indeed > take a variety of > approaches toward educating their students, and ours > is only one. > What goals one seeks to set for students and at what > age is of course > a subject of considerable contention and worthy of > debate. But insofar > as I so often see students with several years of > middle- and > high-school Latin coming to Colgate without the > ability to read (only to > have memorized for the AP), I think this debate is > far from over. > > Best regards to all that I know and all that I > don't, > > Drew Keller > akeller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html

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Learn to Read Latin

Dear all, A friend of mine recently forwarded a series of posts about our new textbook Learn to Read Latin. They were a bit disheartening, but whaddya gonna do? At any rate, two issues raised in those postings deserve to be quickly addressed, and then if anyone has any questions for one of the horses' mouths (or another part of their anatomy), feel free to post me directly or on the listserv, as you wish. First, on the weight of the book. No one apparently noticed that the workbook pages are PERFORATED. My students, and some of the middle-schoolers I know who are using the book, simply tear out the pages appropriate to a given chapter and leave the rest of the workbook at home. Most thirteen-year-olds figure this out on their own, but it wasn't clear that anyone on the list had. This, of course, HALVES the weight of the books. Second, it is true that there is no real Latin in Chapter 1 (not until Chapter 2), but it is also true that "real Latin?i.e. unabridged Latin?usually can't be done with the the noun alone. We also happen to emphasize learning syntactical terminology. We believe that it is helpful to students in many, many ways, and we don't underestimate students: we believe they can be taught much more than they often are, and what it requires is teaching and a book that is clear and rewards learning. I wonder what it would be like if middle-school, high-school, and college chemistry teachers tried to teach chemistry without terminology. ("An atom is made up of one or two kinds of bigger things and then these little tiny things that go around the bigger things real fast; and the bigger things are of two kinds..." We DID however make an effort to write Latin sentences that constantly borrowed and reflect real Latin usage and word order. (For this we made considerable use of the TLL CD-ROM.) There are more than 80 such in Chapter 2 alone, more than anyone, I think, could ever use?and certainly enough for homework, class work, and one-on-one work (not to mention several more for quizzes, etc.). The book is designed to wean students from made-up Latin as early as it is actually possible. Since reading in Latin word order is THE goal of the book (emphasized in the discussion of Latin word order in Chapter 2 and then throughout the book), we do not believe in using abridged Latin and passing it off as real Latin or supposed ancient quotes (festina lente, et tu Brute) and passing them off as real or sentences taken out of context (nil sine labore...) and passing them off as Latin morality tales. We sought to create a flexible book that would allow a willing teacher to use it in a variety of ways according to their own desires. Hence, there are literally hundreds and hundreds of passages, short and long, of poetry and prose of most authors ranging from Ennius to Macrobius but focussed in the classical period. I mail this because the impression received from the group of e-mails I was sent by my former colleague indicate that only a cursory look had been given to the book, and I didn't think it deserved that. On the other hand, well-meaning teachers may indeed take a variety of approaches toward educating their students, and ours is only one. What goals one seeks to set for students and at what age is of course a subject of considerable contention and worthy of debate. But insofar as I so often see students with several years of middle- and high-school Latin coming to Colgate without the ability to read (only to have memorized for the AP), I think this debate is far from over. Best regards to all that I know and all that I don't, Drew Keller akeller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Another triumph for the History Channel...

Or, the point at which I stopped listening to their feature on Cleopatra: "[Julius] Caesar's power extended from Hadrian's Wall..." Jack Kolb Dept. of English, UCLA kolb@xxxxxxxx