|
osdir.com mailing list archive |
|
Subject: CryoNet #28214 - #28219 - msg#00012List: culture.science.cryogenics#28214: TMT: TimesUK article-->DNA blacklist-->Cryonics for embryos [human screener] #28215: Re: Cryonics for embryos [Anthony .] #28216: private protection agencies (libertarianism) [Anthony .] #28217: Re: life insurance [Kennita Watson] #28218: 2020 competition [Anthony .] #28219: A comment about KrioRus [John Dullon] Rate This Digest: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28214%2D28219 Administrivia To subscribe to CryoNet, send email to: cryonet-request@xxxxxxxxxxx with the subject line (not message _body_): subscribe To unsubscribe, use the subject line: unsubscribe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28214 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT) From: human screener <humanscreener@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: TMT: TimesUK article-->DNA blacklist-->Cryonics for embryos Continuation from http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28211 While I'm waiting for a copy of the DNA blacklist, I wonder if anyone here thinks Alcor or CI would be willing or able-- or not-- to store cryopreserved zygotes or embryos for future repair, reanimation, adoption and implantation? Reference links for any previous good discussion-- if any has been done on this-- would be appreciated. Thanks. This train of thought originated with the problem I percieved with Mark supporting a program that could very well be discarding zygotes that have DNA in common with him-- as opposed to being discarded for serious disease. (Click back through the continuation links at the top of this series of posts.) The way I viewed it, either there was an inconsistency in Mark's position (maybe a paradox) or Mark was expressing a view motivated by a DNA-suicide complex to wipe itself out. Another interesting way to deal with that paradox, it seems to me, is by cryopreserving discarded zygotes. Anthony touched on that briefly-- but maybe it's central to the case here-- particularly because this is Cryonet and we discuss cryonics-related things here. Cryopreserving embryos is becoming a very big industry-- apparently-- and getting bigger. [19] Alcor or CI could offer extra services to frozen-embryo storage centers a chance for really long term storage with the intention to reanimate and reimplant in the far future-- at least in cases where the choice comes down to long term storage or destruction. As it turns out, labs charge higher and higher amounts to parents to keep unused frozen embryos for longer and longer periods of time making long term storage too expensive for parents who are then forced to destroy the frozen embryo. Alcor or CI could come to the rescue and offer low-cost really-long term storage-- relieving the parents of emotional stress. A cooperative mechanism could be set up with the embryo donation center to select a frozen embryo at any time for reanimation and implantation. The resulting person would be grandfathered into a cryonics policy somehow so that the new motto for human existence would change from From dust you were created and to dust you shall return to From stasis you were reanimated and to stasis you may return . This may already be in effect for some who were born from frozen zygotes beginning in 1984. Those guys are now 26 years old and younger. I would think that they'd be hanging around cryonics by now. Are any current readers here an ex-frozen embryo? More to my point-- does anyone here think Alcor or CI are able or willing to store frozen embryos? I'll ask them myself soon-- in further updates to this thread-- an example of a "continuity thread" any can create on Cryonet with a backlink their previous post-- a writing style innovation you may all copy. Monkey see monkey do works. (see latest SciAm). [19] National Embryo Donation Center http://www.embryodonation.org/donors_donationdecision.php __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28214 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28215 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:37:35 -0600 From: "Anthony ." <autophagy@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Cryonics for embryos > Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT) > From: human screener <humanscreener@xxxxxxxxx> > Subject: TMT: TimesUK article-->DNA blacklist-->Cryonics for embryos > I > wonder if anyone here thinks Alcor or CI would be > willing or able-- or not-- to store cryopreserved > zygotes or embryos for future repair, reanimation, > adoption and implantation? This is an idea I've been interested in since I understood what cryonics was properly about. If you believe that an embryo (at XYZ stage) is a human person (obviously it is a human life as it is made from human cells, but so is a toe-nail) then cryonics already works as these "persons" are routinely "reanimated". The problem here is similar to one I've previously pointed out. If you do not believe that these cellular structures are persons, then you are left only with a potential person, who is not as important as an actual person. Because of modern tech., potential persons are inherent in any human cells. If we're going to bother to freeze unwanted embryos (in a society which barely bothers to care for unwanted children), then why not freeze any jettisoned/superflous human cell? I suppose that this is a matter of emotion - the embryo has a greater emotional attraction because it is one step closer to being a real person compared to a reproductive cell (which - outside the lab - needs to unite with another), or another human cell (which needs tech intervention before it can become a person). It is important to note the irrationalities and inconsistencies in these issues (i.e. I'd rather seen every poverty-stricken child cared for before I see a cent spent on unwanted xygotes). > Alcor > or CI could offer extra services to frozen-embryo > storage centers a chance for really long term storage > with the intention to reanimate and reimplant in the > far future- A great idea. Not only would our cryonics providers be making more money and diversifying, they'd also be proving a point about cryobiology and perhaps pleasing a powerful ideology (i.e. pro-life) which, (despite it's excesses, hypocrisy, and short-sightedness) could be so appeased in this case that they might view "corpsicles" with less alarm. >As it turns > out, labs charge higher and higher amounts to parents > to keep unused frozen embryos for longer and longer > periods of time making long term storage too expensive > for parents who are then forced to destroy the frozen > embryo. Horrible. Again, cryonics providers could offer this service to anyone is this difficult situation. Before my son was born, I asked C.I. if they offered freezing for stem-cells taken from the umbilical cord - unfortunately they do not, but I was directed to the relevant providers. If freezing stem-cells is beyond C.I.s abilities, freezing embryos will probably be too. > A cooperative > mechanism could be set up with the embryo donation > center to select a frozen embryo at any time for > reanimation and implantation. Do pro-life groups create funding for people who cannot afford to keep embryos alive? If so, these charities might be approached to be part of this endeavour (& if the pro-life movement does not do this, it is another example of its hypocrisy). The problem is that a lot of embryos are not necessarily the genetic offspring of the people who want them (e.g. some DNA comes from a donar who does not have fertility problems) in which case, when technology like this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5154026.stm gets offered, people are more likely to abandon their embryos and turn to reproduction that will involve their own genes. Anthony Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28215 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28216 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:39:02 -0600 From: "Anthony ." <autophagy@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: private protection agencies (libertarianism) On 7/12/06, egg plant <eggplant107@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Private Protection Agencies, the end of state-sanctioned law & war, etc. are all interesting and potentially good ideas. I agree with them all on principle, though I'm skeptical that they will manifest any time soon, or that they are as problem free as you illustrate them. I pick a few nits below: > All parties would have a reason to avoid violence if possible. The disputing > parties would not want to turn their front yard into a war zone, and > violence is expensive. War is also profitable if you are a Private Protection Agency who'd like to prove themselves, or an arms-dealer, or anyone with an interest in building back-up a shattered, conquered infrastructure. It is also profitable to ideologues and othre charismatic groups and individuals for taking the shattered remains in their own direction. Many PPAs will be full of such people. > The successful protection agencies would be more > interested in making money than saving face. Their reputation would have to come from somewhere, and in the initial stages of this kind of anarchy, the PPAs would want to prove their success. > Most of the time this would > work so I expect the total level of violence to be less than in the nation > state system we have now, but I'm not such a utopian as to suggest it will > drop to zero. Why? Rather than centralised policies regarding neighbours, you'd have lots and lots of new neighbours with their own policies, which multiplies the chances of conflict. > Please note that I'm not talking about justice only for the rich. If a rich > man's PPA makes unreasonable demands (beatings, sidewalk justice, I insist > on my mother being the judge if I get into trouble) it's going to need one > hell of a lot of firepower to back it up. The rich have (or can aquire) a hell of a lot of firepower - and more. > That kind of an army is expensive > because of the hardware needed and because of the very high wages it will > need to pay its employees for an extremely dangerous job. Then again, if your enemy PPAs are using slings and clubs all you need are cheap guns to out do them -no need for hi-tech. > To pay for all > this they will need to charge their clients enormous fees severely limiting > their customer base and that means even higher charges. So only the super rich can afford the super PPAs? >They could never get > the upper hand, because the common man's PPA would be able to outspend a PPA > that had outrageous demands and was just for the super rich. If the super-rich's cash out numbered the poors (i.e. in the case of the richest 3 people in the world owning more than the poorest 36 countries) they would have the upper-hand. Also, they can join forces and probably have the upperhand in any situation i.e. tyranny. > No system can guarantee justice to everybody all the time but you'd have the > greatest chance of finding it in Anarcho-capitalism. I'm yet to be convinced. The current system is at least an evil you know. > In a dictatorship one > man's whim can lead to hell on earth, I don't see how 40 million Germans > could have murdered 6 million Jews in a Anarcho-capitalistic world. See above for how. >Things > aren't much better in a Democracy, 51% can decide to kill the other 49% > ,nothing even close to that is possible in Anarchy, even theoretically. I don't see how this can be. If 51% of anarchists form a coalition against 49% of everyone else... there you go. > In general, the desire not to be killed is much stronger than the desire to > kill a stranger, even a Jewish stranger. Jews would be willing to pay as > much as necessary, up to and including their entire net worth not to be > killed. I doubt if even the most rabid anti Semite would go much beyond 2%. 2%? That wouldn't make them very rabid. > As a result the PPA protecting Jews would be much stronger than the one that > wants to kill them. But the Jews would end up very poor having to spend all their money on PPAs. The aggressors could oppress them simply through threat of violence. Meanwhile, the PPAs get really rich. The same can be said for any oppressed group i.e. poor and ethnic minorities. > In Anarchy, for things that are REALLY important to you > (like not getting killed) you have much more influence than just one man one > vote. So long as you have the cash and the contacts. Otherwise you don't even have a vote. > How can I guarantee that some Private Protection Agency won't switch from > being a protector to being an oppressor? I can't. I can't give you an iron > clad guarantee that the US Army wont overthrow the government and set up a > military dictatorship either. They certainly have the means to do so if they > wished to. But in our current situation the Army is constrained by its own belief in the system. In your vision of things, there is no state to be loyal to, only the current employer of the PPA (so long as they remain the employer) & the PPA itself. Given these circumstances, I'd say military rule would be more likely - especially as international law is likely to be different, if not absent. > >you need a fairer share of wealth, health, > >and security and less stealing and domination through warfare and > >aggressive business (often the same thing). > > Translation: A Libertarian society is inferior to one where people simply do > what I tell them to do. You don't think the things I recommended are good? Surely you believed these can be accomplished with your political ideology? The point of democracy is that it isn't about what I tell others to do, it is supposed to be consensual with laws that protect the poor, weak, and non-human. Your version seems to streamline the consensuality (so long as you can afford consensus and aren't pouring everything into defense) and forget the protection aspect. Anthony Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28216 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28217 References: <20060713090004.28896.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxx> From: Kennita Watson <kennita@xxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: life insurance Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:17:13 -0700 Robert Ettinger wrote: > A newspaper article July 9 said that life insurance term policies > cost about > a third less than they did 10 years ago, and for people still in > good health > it might make sense even to replace existing policies with new > policies. I'll add that one should make sure that the term policy is convertible to a whole or universal life policy without medical exam, in case health ceases to be good, either gradually or suddenly, sometime during the term. I was diagnosed with MS during the term of my term life policy, thereby becoming effectively uninsurable (at least at any reasonable rate). Fortunately, my policy was convertible, so I'm covered for as long as I pay the premiums (and thereafter, once it's paid off). Live long and prosper, Kennita -- Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery; none but ourselves can free our minds. -- Bob Marley, "Redemption Song" Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28217 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28218 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 18:06:44 -0600 From: "Anthony ." <autophagy@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: 2020 competition Hello again, I've written a short, competitive article on what I think Canada will be like in 2020. The central theme is cryonics. Please view: 2020: the beginning of the end of death in Canada at http://twenty-twenty.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42 Your attention and (if deserved) praise will be appreciated! ;) Anthony Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28218 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28219 From: jonathan_despres@xxxxxxxxxxx Subject: A comment about KrioRus <<< POSTER'S REPUTATION TOO LOW >>> To retrieve the entire message, send email to: archive@xxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject line "28219". Alternatively, access the message via WWW at URL: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28219 Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28219 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of CryoNet Digest ********************* Thread at a glance:
Previous Message by Date: click to view message previewCryoNet #28207 - #28213CryoNet - Thu 13 Jul 2006 #28207: Re: #28193: Emerging Infectious Determinants of Chronic Diseases [John de Rivaz] #28208: Re: [CN] Rating system [Eugen Leitl] #28209: correction, wrong group [Eugen Leitl] #28210: Re: Rating system [David Stodolsky] #28211: TMT: Times (UK) article-- paradox, zygote screen-- DNA blacklist--rating system [human screener] #28212: RE: CryoNet #28197 - #28206 [egg plant] #28213: life insurance [Ettinger] Rate This Digest: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28207%2D28213 Administrivia To subscribe to CryoNet, send email to: cryonet-request@xxxxxxxxxxx with the subject line (not message _body_): subscribe To unsubscribe, use the subject line: unsubscribe To post a message to CryoNet, send your message to: cryonet@xxxxxxxxxxx (Note: A "Subject:" line starting the message body replaces the "Subject:" line in the header. This gives a second opportunity to provide a meaningful subject line.) Since all CryoNet messages are archived and accessible via WWW, including search engines, make certain that your postings reflect how you want the world to see you. To retrieve past messages, send email to: archive@xxxxxxxxxxx with the message numbers in the subject line. (Message 0003 describes the advanced syntax.) You also can retrieve them via the CryoNet web page at URL: http://www.cryonet.org/ For administrative or other questions/suggestions, send email to me at "kqb@xxxxxxxxxxx" with "cryonics" in the subject line. - Kevin Q. Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28207 From: "John de Rivaz" <john@xxxxxxxxxxx> References: <20060711090001.82329.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: #28193: Emerging Infectious Determinants of Chronic Diseases Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:23:33 +0100 In http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28193 David Stodolsky quoted: >>> Evidence now confirms that noncommunicable chron- ic diseases can stem from infectious agents. Furthermore, at least 13 of 39 recently described infectious agents induce chronic syndromes. Identifying the relationships can affect health across populations, creating opportunities to reduce the impact of chronic disease by preventing or treat- ing infection. As the concept is progressively accepted, advances in laboratory technology and epidemiology facili- tate the detection of noncultivable, novel, and even recog- nized microbial origins. A spectrum of diverse pathogens and chronic syndromes emerges, with a range of pathways from exposure to chronic illness or disability. Complex sys- tems of changing human behavioral traits superimposed on human, microbial, and environmental factors often deter- mine risk for exposure and chronic outcome. Yet the strength of causal evidence varies widely, and detecting a microbe does not prove causality. Nevertheless, infectious agents likely determine more cancers, immune-mediated syndromes, neurodevelopmental disorders, and other chronic conditions than currently appreciated. <<< I think this says that apparently trivial infectious diseases can leave victims in a condition that causes them to develop chronic and serious illnesses later in life. This is something I have surmised for a very long time. It is nice from the point of view of "me being right" to see this validated by learned research, but of course it is also a case of "my worse fears confirmed". A few years ago I started a web site and associated Yahoo Group to encourage the extermination of the Noro Virus (aka Norwalk, or winter vomiting disease) in the same manner smallpox has been eliminated. the article http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/noro_virus/message/179 suggests that infection of children with this common easily spread illness can cause kidney damage. Other articles in the group suggest that many people are too lax with preventing the spread, such as going to work or using public transport whilst infectious. Fortunately there are military and economic advantages from a solution to this problem, and there is a lot of money available for research. This disease will go, with or without my Yahoo group. However it is interesting to follow the discussion there by both lawyers and virologists. Here the legal profession may well offer some benefit by rattling a few cages to encourage solutions to be found more quickly. There is, of course, a contra point of view that has deeper roots in history that "a bit of suffering is good for you". This has been translated into the idea that if the immune system is presented with no challenges, it turns in on its body and produces allergies or autoimmune diseases. It is likely that both concepts are correct, ie life is a matter of checks and balances. I suggest the correct way forward is 1. Eliminate common infectious diseases 2. Engineer a solution to the allergy and autoimmune problem, by for example introducing known harmless viruses and bacteria which produce no symptoms and have no long term effects to exercise the immune system. (Maybe this is why yogurts and similar products are beneficial?) Although this relates to long healthy life, it is not directly related to cryonics (the subject of cryonet - preservation of people at death as legally defined so this if future science can restore them to healthy life, it can). Therefore I recommend further discussion in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LongevityReport/ Readers interested in the related subjects are referred to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/noro_virus/ http://www.cryonet.org there is no charge for any of these. -- Sincerely, John de Rivaz: http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy, Nomad .. and more Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28207 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28208 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:09:20 +0200 From: Eugen Leitl <eugen@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [CN] Rating system References: <list-3990238@xxxxxxxxxxxx> On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 07:24:19AM -0700, Jordan Sparks wrote: > Someone pointed out to me that my last post about the infeasibility of > uploading with near-future technology managed to procure a 'poor' rating. > And yet, my post was relevant, concise, and accurate. Would those readers It's nice to at all see a voting procedure on a mailing list. However, it would be easier to vote if each post did came with a personalized (a longish one-time string) for each list participant. I rarely vote for posts because it requires me to memorize or obtain a personal code, which is a too high threshold for most people. > who ascribe ratings please try to remember that the only objective of the > rating system is to deter imbeciles I frequently give Jon Depres a poor > rating, regardless of his latest pseudonym. He is dishonest, detrimental, A good to contain trolls, avaliable on Mailman and Yahoogroups (and probably elsewhere) is to put new members on moderation by default. This moderator reviews the first or the first couple messages by the new member, before changing her status to unmoderated. This effectively prevents drive-by spamming, too. > manipulative, and simply needs to be blocked from posting here. On the > other hand, when human screener recently got blacklisted, I took the time to > go back to a couple of previous posts and rate them positively. I encourage > others to do the same. Please refrain from negative ratings unless you > really wish to see that person removed from the list. I agree. I also would like to not receive "poster reputation too low" messages by default. Btw, for those who don't like web forums, and are interested in the technical aspect of cryonics, I've created a new yahoogroups mailing list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biostasis/ The email interface is available via the following addresses Post message: biostasis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subscribe: biostasis-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Unsubscribe: biostasis-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx List owner: biostasis-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx The rationale: there is no technical cryonics mailing list. The Cold Filter is the closest equivalent, but is web-only. -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28208 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28209 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:22:46 +0200 From: Eugen Leitl <eugen@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: correction, wrong group Sorry for the mixup (I confused biostasis with biostase, which is the German cryonics group mailing list). Biostasis is someone else's group. The mailing list I wanted to invite technically interested cryonicists is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biocryo/ The email interface to it: Post message: biocryo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subscribe: biocryo-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Unsubscribe: biocryo-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx List owner: biocryo-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Apologies for creating unnecessary confusion. Too little coffeine today. -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28209 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28210 References: <list-3990238@xxxxxxxxxxxx> From: David Stodolsky <david.stodolsky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Rating system Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:36:16 +0200 On 11 Jul 2006, at 16:24, Jordan Sparks wrote: > rating system is to deter imbeciles I frequently give Jon Depres a > poor > rating, regardless of his latest pseudonym. The problem will not be solved until secure IDs are required. There are other problems with the Rating System which results in too few responses and therefore unstable ratings. Perhaps it is time for a summary of Rating System performance. dss David Stodolsky davidstodolsky@xxxxxxx Skype: davidstodolsky Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28211 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 06:54:03 -0700 (PDT) From: human screener <humanscreener@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: TMT: Times (UK) article-- paradox, zygote screen-- DNA blacklist--rating system Retrolink for this Topic Monitor Thread (TMT) http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28198 Update Anthony has asked me to answer each of his points [12][15] but I'm not up to it. It's good enough for my original purpose that he has raised interesting questions-- some of which are the kinds of questions that my pointing to the paradox in the first place were intended to raise. Thanks Anthony.[18] Since we both agree that it would be more interesting to see the DNA blacklist, it's more important to follow up on that rather than try to resolve the problems Anthony points to at this time. I'll report back here when I hear from the lab. You can bookmark my Cryonet archive page and check for that update anytime in the future if you're not reading Cryonet all the time.[17] Thanks for the positive rating, Jordan.[16]. It looks like you've triggered another round of discussion about the rating system. Human screener might face screening, himself, soon and join the blacklisted zygotes. Yikes! I appear to inadvertently be participating in posting activity that may result in my own demise! What a paradox! Notes [12] Anthony raises questions to think about. http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28196 [15] Anthony, more on DNA blacklist. http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28201 [16] Jordan Sparks on rating system. http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28199 [17] Human screener's Cryonet messages http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/findmsgs.cgi?author=human%20screener [18] Anthony's Cryonet messages http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/findmsgs.cgi?author=anthony%20. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28211 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28212 From: "egg plant" <eggplant107@xxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: CryoNet #28197 - #28206 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 16:26:18 +0000 "Anthony ." <autophagy@xxxxxxxxx> >Perhaps it'd be easier to say what there should be laws on rather than >shouldn't be, but that is still probably a long list of laws Good laws are no different than anything else, if you want to maximize something then make it a commodity and sell it on the free market. Nobody does that for law very much, that's why there are far more good cars than good laws. In a world with minimal government Privately Produced Law (PPL) would have Private Protection Agencies (PPA's) to back them up. Disputes among PPA's would be settled by an independent arbitrator agreed to by both parties BEFORE the disagreement happened. Something like that can exist today. When companies sign complicated contracts they sometimes also agree on who will arbitrate it if differences in interpretation happen. Nobody wants to get caught up in the slow, expensive court system run by governments. The arbitrator is paid by the case, and because he is picked by both sides, it's in his interest to be as just as possible. If he favored one side over another or made brutal or stupid decisions he would not be picked again and would need to look for a new line of work. Unlike present day judges and juries, justice would have a positive survival value for the arbitrator. All parties would have a reason to avoid violence if possible. The disputing parties would not want to turn their front yard into a war zone, and violence is expensive. The successful protection agencies would be more interested in making money than saving face. Most of the time this would work so I expect the total level of violence to be less than in the nation state system we have now, but I'm not such a utopian as to suggest it will drop to zero. Even when force is not used the implicit threat is always there, another good reason to be civilized. Please note that I'm not talking about justice only for the rich. If a rich man's PPA makes unreasonable demands (beatings, sidewalk justice, I insist on my mother being the judge if I get into trouble) it's going to need one hell of a lot of firepower to back it up. That kind of an army is expensive because of the hardware needed and because of the very high wages it will need to pay its employees for an extremely dangerous job. To pay for all this they will need to charge their clients enormous fees severely limiting their customer base and that means even higher charges. They could never get the upper hand, because the common man's PPA would be able to outspend a PPA that had outrageous demands and was just for the super rich. A yacht cost a lot more than a car, yet the Ford motor Company is far richer than all the yacht builders on the planet combined. No system can guarantee justice to everybody all the time but you'd have the greatest chance of finding it in Anarcho-capitalism. In a dictatorship one man's whim can lead to hell on earth, I don't see how 40 million Germans could have murdered 6 million Jews in a Anarcho-capitalistic world. Things aren't much better in a Democracy, 51% can decide to kill the other 49% ,nothing even close to that is possible in Anarchy, even theoretically. In general, the desire not to be killed is much stronger than the desire to kill a stranger, even a Jewish stranger. Jews would be willing to pay as much as necessary, up to and including their entire net worth not to be killed. I doubt if even the most rabid anti Semite would go much beyond 2%. As a result the PPA protecting Jews would be much stronger than the one that wants to kill them. In Anarchy, for things that are REALLY important to you (like not getting killed) you have much more influence than just one man one vote. >Do you think if there was virtually no >government, that no other strong, >resourceful political faction would try to take it over and become a "big" >government again? How can I guarantee that some Private Protection Agency won't switch from being a protector to being an oppressor? I can't. I can't give you an iron clad guarantee that the US Army wont overthrow the government and set up a military dictatorship either. They certainly have the means to do so if they wished to. I don't think that's very likely to happen, but it's far more likely than the sort of organization I'm talking about doing it. The instant it starts acting in a totalitarian way, shut off its money supply and stop its cancerous growth in the bud. That is a powerful tool that we don't have today, with the US. Army you are forced to keep sending it money even if you hate what it's doing. >you need a fairer share of wealth, health, >and security and less stealing and domination through warfare and >aggressive business (often the same thing). Translation: A Libertarian society is inferior to one where people simply do what I tell them to do. Well I confess on occasion I have had somewhat similar thoughts myself but for some reason I have had limited success convincing others as to the virtue of this view so I've decided to settle for second best. John K Clark Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28212 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28213 From: Ettinger@xxxxxxx Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 16:27:36 EDT Subject: life insurance A newspaper article July 9 said that life insurance term policies cost about a third less than they did 10 years ago, and for people still in good health it might make sense even to replace existing policies with new policies. The writer also thinks that term is best, i.e. investment and life insurance should be separate. R.E. Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28213 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of CryoNet Digest ********************* Next Message by Date: click to view message previewCryoNet #28220 - #28226CryoNet - Sat 15 Jul 2006 #28220: "transhumanist nut-jobs, cryogenic suspension" [Eugen Leitl] #28221: 2020 competition [Jordan Sparks] #28222: Re: 2020 [Anthony .] #28223: TMTend: TimesUK article-->Zygote cryonics? [human screener] #28224: Progress in Suspension? [JOSEPH W MORGAN] #28225: Cells4Life,inc [Billy H. Seidel] #28226: 2020 revised [Anthony .] Rate This Digest: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28220%2D28226 Administrivia To subscribe to CryoNet, send email to: cryonet-request@xxxxxxxxxxx with the subject line (not message _body_): subscribe To unsubscribe, use the subject line: unsubscribe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28220 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 12:21:12 +0200 From: Eugen Leitl <eugen@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: "transhumanist nut-jobs, cryogenic suspension" Remarkable, what passes for news these days. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.07/posts.html?pg=4 Mike Duggan, a veterinary surgeon, holds his gloved hands over an 8-inch incision in the belly of pig 78-6, a 120-pound, pink Yorkshire. He s waiting for a green light from Hasan Alam, a trauma surgeon at Massachu setts General Hospital. Make the injury, Alam says. Duggan nods and slips his hands into the gash, fingers probing through inches of fat and the rosy membranes holding the organs in place. He pushes aside the intestines, ovaries, and bladder, and with a quick scalpel stroke slices open the iliac artery. It s 10:30 am. Pig 78-6 loses a quarter of her blood within moments. Heart rate and blood pressure plummet. Don t worry Alam and Duggan are going to save her. Alam goes to work on the chest, removing part of a rib to reveal the heart, a throbbing, shiny pink ball the size of a fist. He cuts open the aorta an even more lethal injury and blood sprays all over our scrubs. The EKG flatlines. The surgeons drain the remaining blood and connect tubes to the aorta and other vessels, filling the circulatory system with chilled organ-preservation fluid a nearly frozen daiquiri of salts, sugars, and free-radical scavengers. Her temperature is 50 degrees Fahrenheit; brain activity has ceased. Alam checks the wall clock and asks a nurse to mark the time: 11:25 am. But 78-6 is, in fact, only mostly dead the common term for her state is, believe it or not, suspended animation. Long the domain of transhumanist nut-jobs, cryogenic suspension may be just two years away from clinical trials on humans (presuming someone can solve the sticky ethical problems). Trauma surgeons can t wait saving people with serious wounds, like gunshots, is always a race against the effects of blood loss. When blood flow drops, toxins accumulate; just five minutes of low oxygen levels causes brain death. Chill a body, though, and you change the equation. Metabolism slows, oxygen demand dives, and the time available to treat the injury stretches. With the pig essentially dead, Alam says, we ve got hours to fix it and play around. By noon the team has stitched up the arteries and gone to lunch. It has become routine: Alam has suspended 200 pigs for an hour each, and although experimental protocol calls for different levels of care for each pig, the ones that got optimal treatment all survived. Today he ll keep 78-6 down for two hours. That afternoon, the team scrubs back in and starts pumping warm blood into 78-6, watching the heart twitch and writhe like a bag of worms as it struggles to find a rhythm. A healthy heart should feel like a rare steak, Alam explains; medium or well-done suggests muscle damage. He pokes it. Medium, he says, removing clamps to let it pump more blood. If he closes the chest too soon and the heart tires, he won t be able to save the animal. A few minutes later, Alam touches the heart again. Medium-rare, he says. Looks pretty good. But he admits he s ballparking. It s the gestalt, he says. It s not in any book. Over the next hour, the surgeons stitch up 78-6. Everyone leaves except Alam, who perches on a stool at her side. When he removes her breathing tube, she breathes irregularly a few times and he leans in with a hand venti lator, squeezing rhythmically and stroking her head. She quivers; her ear twitches. By 6 pm she s awake, draped in a blanket. Attendants roll her gurney into a recovery room with classical music playing on a radio and a healthy pig in an adjacent stall to keep her company. Pigs like that. Tests on other subjects and postmortem examinations of brains have revealed no cognitive damage from the procedure, but Alam will nevertheless stick around until 78-6 gets back on her feet, around midnight. She didn t look so great before, he says, patting the pig s side. But she s going to make it. Bijal P. Trivedi -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28220 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28221 From: "Jordan Sparks" <jsparks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: 2020 competition Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 07:14:07 -0700 Way way way too optimistic. Quite na ve, actually. The issues are much deeper and more complex. Unless you meant it as simply an intellectual exercise, which might be the case. Jordan Sparks -----Original Message----- I've written a short, competitive article on what I think Canada will be like in 2020. The central theme is cryonics. Please view: 2020: the beginning of the end of death in Canada at http://twenty-twenty.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42 Your attention and (if deserved) praise will be appreciated! ;) Anthony Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28221 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28222 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:22:43 -0600 From: "Anthony ." <autophagy@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: 2020 Jordan Sparks writes: > Way way way too optimistic. What is optimistic? The time-frame? (Which is necessary b/c the competition is about CA in 2020). The speculated responses? (Which seem pretty dark considering most countries move to ban cryonics, the government is'nt prepared, the Pope moves against it, etc.) > Quite na ve, actually. Explain that too. > The issues are much > deeper and more complex. Of course, but see what you can do in 800 words. > Unless you meant it as simply an intellectual > exercise, which might be the case. No, it is supposed to be a competition entry seriously considering how some future development might affect Canada. I chose cryonics so that the people involved in 2020 might be exposed to it and think about it. Thanks anyway, I got better feedback from Brian Wowk. Anthony Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28222 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28223 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 07:57:22 -0700 (PDT) From: human screener <humanscreener@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: TMTend: TimesUK article-->Zygote cryonics? Continued from http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28214 Anthony has agreed with me that cryonics for discarded embryos is a valid idea insofar as cryonics goes.[20] He covered a lot of ground in that post but to maintain the rather thin connection to the original idea in this thread, -- which was that Mark's support of a screening program that discarded zygotes with an order-of-magnitude much larger DNA-blacklist constituted a possible problem (paradox or irony) since it was likely that the zygotes, given the large 6,000+ trait list, had DNA in common with Mark (or any of us)-- I'll ask Mark Plus-- if he's reading Cryonet (although most of his writing is being directed to his blog now [21])-- if-- given that he supports the screening program, would he then support a zygote-cryonics program for the discarded? The End: Anthony-- I gotta go. Thanks for the ideas.... Mark-- if you can, let readers here know what your position is on proactively preserving discarded zygotes if you will. Alcor and CI board members-- if you can, let readers know if policy accomodates frozen embryo storage. I've run out of free time. It's been fun. --human screener. [20] Anthony agrees witha and expands on zygote/embryo cryonics http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28215 [21] Mark Plus's blog, Supersurvival Needs http://supersurvival.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28223 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28224 From: "JOSEPH W MORGAN" <Joseph_W_Morgan@xxxxxxx> Subject: Progress in Suspension? Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:20:01 -0700 Check out this article: ************************* Stuck Pig Wired July 2006 ************************* Cryonic suspension may be just a few years away from clinical trials on humans, based on successful suspended animation with hundreds of pigs for an hour at a time.... http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=5746&m=1405<about:blank> Content-Type: text/html; [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28224 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28225 From: "Billy H. Seidel" <seidel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Cells4Life,inc Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 06:40:19 -0800 Message #28215 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:37:35 -0600 From: "Anthony ." <autophagy@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Cryonics for embryos > Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT) > From: human screener <humanscreener@xxxxxxxxx> > Subject: TMT: TimesUK article-->DNA blacklist-->Cryonics for embryos > I > wonder if anyone here thinks Alcor or CI would be > willing or able-- or not-- to store cryopreserved > zygotes or embryos for future repair, reanimation, > adoption and implantation? About June 2001 a company called "Cells4Life,inc" was struggling to get started. I do not know all the details but the idea was to store cells for later cloning when needed by a patient that might require new body parts. Anthony, I think it would have been a small step to providing the service you talked about above. To make this short, I believe that ALCOR could have helped to make this company a viable operation but did not. The ALCOR board of directors knows why they did not pursue this line of thinking. So your quest for information should be directed to ALCOR. Perhaps the time is now to restart this thinking within ALCOR. Hope this helps. Billy H. Seidel Content-Type: text/html; [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28225 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28226 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 10:04:10 -0600 From: "Anthony ." <autophagy@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: 2020 revised Hi - after receiving feedback I've edited my entry to 2020 (a contest in which Canadians are invited to imagine Canada in 2020). Most entries are concerned with global warming, water, poverty. My entry is here: http://twenty-twenty.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42 and is called: "2020: a new life-saving technology in Canada" It also has a poll: Do you think cryonics could ever work? Yes, with the right medical advances No, medical science will only be able to go so far Only one vote, no score, no replies, 47 views (mostly mine probably). The higher the score, the more replies and views, the more my entry will be exposed. I'm not interested in winning, but in including cryonics in this debate about the future. Spare a minute to take part in the poll and score my post if you don't have time to read it and send feedback - that way we gain cryonics a little more attention. Thanks. Anthony Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28226 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of CryoNet Digest ********************* Previous Message by Thread: click to view message previewCryoNet #28207 - #28213CryoNet - Thu 13 Jul 2006 #28207: Re: #28193: Emerging Infectious Determinants of Chronic Diseases [John de Rivaz] #28208: Re: [CN] Rating system [Eugen Leitl] #28209: correction, wrong group [Eugen Leitl] #28210: Re: Rating system [David Stodolsky] #28211: TMT: Times (UK) article-- paradox, zygote screen-- DNA blacklist--rating system [human screener] #28212: RE: CryoNet #28197 - #28206 [egg plant] #28213: life insurance [Ettinger] Rate This Digest: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28207%2D28213 Administrivia To subscribe to CryoNet, send email to: cryonet-request@xxxxxxxxxxx with the subject line (not message _body_): subscribe To unsubscribe, use the subject line: unsubscribe To post a message to CryoNet, send your message to: cryonet@xxxxxxxxxxx (Note: A "Subject:" line starting the message body replaces the "Subject:" line in the header. This gives a second opportunity to provide a meaningful subject line.) Since all CryoNet messages are archived and accessible via WWW, including search engines, make certain that your postings reflect how you want the world to see you. To retrieve past messages, send email to: archive@xxxxxxxxxxx with the message numbers in the subject line. (Message 0003 describes the advanced syntax.) You also can retrieve them via the CryoNet web page at URL: http://www.cryonet.org/ For administrative or other questions/suggestions, send email to me at "kqb@xxxxxxxxxxx" with "cryonics" in the subject line. - Kevin Q. Brown ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28207 From: "John de Rivaz" <john@xxxxxxxxxxx> References: <20060711090001.82329.qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: #28193: Emerging Infectious Determinants of Chronic Diseases Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 10:23:33 +0100 In http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28193 David Stodolsky quoted: >>> Evidence now confirms that noncommunicable chron- ic diseases can stem from infectious agents. Furthermore, at least 13 of 39 recently described infectious agents induce chronic syndromes. Identifying the relationships can affect health across populations, creating opportunities to reduce the impact of chronic disease by preventing or treat- ing infection. As the concept is progressively accepted, advances in laboratory technology and epidemiology facili- tate the detection of noncultivable, novel, and even recog- nized microbial origins. A spectrum of diverse pathogens and chronic syndromes emerges, with a range of pathways from exposure to chronic illness or disability. Complex sys- tems of changing human behavioral traits superimposed on human, microbial, and environmental factors often deter- mine risk for exposure and chronic outcome. Yet the strength of causal evidence varies widely, and detecting a microbe does not prove causality. Nevertheless, infectious agents likely determine more cancers, immune-mediated syndromes, neurodevelopmental disorders, and other chronic conditions than currently appreciated. <<< I think this says that apparently trivial infectious diseases can leave victims in a condition that causes them to develop chronic and serious illnesses later in life. This is something I have surmised for a very long time. It is nice from the point of view of "me being right" to see this validated by learned research, but of course it is also a case of "my worse fears confirmed". A few years ago I started a web site and associated Yahoo Group to encourage the extermination of the Noro Virus (aka Norwalk, or winter vomiting disease) in the same manner smallpox has been eliminated. the article http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/noro_virus/message/179 suggests that infection of children with this common easily spread illness can cause kidney damage. Other articles in the group suggest that many people are too lax with preventing the spread, such as going to work or using public transport whilst infectious. Fortunately there are military and economic advantages from a solution to this problem, and there is a lot of money available for research. This disease will go, with or without my Yahoo group. However it is interesting to follow the discussion there by both lawyers and virologists. Here the legal profession may well offer some benefit by rattling a few cages to encourage solutions to be found more quickly. There is, of course, a contra point of view that has deeper roots in history that "a bit of suffering is good for you". This has been translated into the idea that if the immune system is presented with no challenges, it turns in on its body and produces allergies or autoimmune diseases. It is likely that both concepts are correct, ie life is a matter of checks and balances. I suggest the correct way forward is 1. Eliminate common infectious diseases 2. Engineer a solution to the allergy and autoimmune problem, by for example introducing known harmless viruses and bacteria which produce no symptoms and have no long term effects to exercise the immune system. (Maybe this is why yogurts and similar products are beneficial?) Although this relates to long healthy life, it is not directly related to cryonics (the subject of cryonet - preservation of people at death as legally defined so this if future science can restore them to healthy life, it can). Therefore I recommend further discussion in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LongevityReport/ Readers interested in the related subjects are referred to http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/noro_virus/ http://www.cryonet.org there is no charge for any of these. -- Sincerely, John de Rivaz: http://John.deRivaz.com for websites including Cryonics Europe, Longevity Report, The Venturists, Porthtowan, Alec Harley Reeves - inventor, Arthur Bowker - potter, de Rivaz genealogy, Nomad .. and more Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28207 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28208 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:09:20 +0200 From: Eugen Leitl <eugen@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [CN] Rating system References: <list-3990238@xxxxxxxxxxxx> On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 07:24:19AM -0700, Jordan Sparks wrote: > Someone pointed out to me that my last post about the infeasibility of > uploading with near-future technology managed to procure a 'poor' rating. > And yet, my post was relevant, concise, and accurate. Would those readers It's nice to at all see a voting procedure on a mailing list. However, it would be easier to vote if each post did came with a personalized (a longish one-time string) for each list participant. I rarely vote for posts because it requires me to memorize or obtain a personal code, which is a too high threshold for most people. > who ascribe ratings please try to remember that the only objective of the > rating system is to deter imbeciles I frequently give Jon Depres a poor > rating, regardless of his latest pseudonym. He is dishonest, detrimental, A good to contain trolls, avaliable on Mailman and Yahoogroups (and probably elsewhere) is to put new members on moderation by default. This moderator reviews the first or the first couple messages by the new member, before changing her status to unmoderated. This effectively prevents drive-by spamming, too. > manipulative, and simply needs to be blocked from posting here. On the > other hand, when human screener recently got blacklisted, I took the time to > go back to a couple of previous posts and rate them positively. I encourage > others to do the same. Please refrain from negative ratings unless you > really wish to see that person removed from the list. I agree. I also would like to not receive "poster reputation too low" messages by default. Btw, for those who don't like web forums, and are interested in the technical aspect of cryonics, I've created a new yahoogroups mailing list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biostasis/ The email interface is available via the following addresses Post message: biostasis@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subscribe: biostasis-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Unsubscribe: biostasis-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx List owner: biostasis-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx The rationale: there is no technical cryonics mailing list. The Cold Filter is the closest equivalent, but is web-only. -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28208 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28209 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:22:46 +0200 From: Eugen Leitl <eugen@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: correction, wrong group Sorry for the mixup (I confused biostasis with biostase, which is the German cryonics group mailing list). Biostasis is someone else's group. The mailing list I wanted to invite technically interested cryonicists is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biocryo/ The email interface to it: Post message: biocryo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subscribe: biocryo-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Unsubscribe: biocryo-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx List owner: biocryo-owner@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Apologies for creating unnecessary confusion. Too little coffeine today. -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28209 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28210 References: <list-3990238@xxxxxxxxxxxx> From: David Stodolsky <david.stodolsky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Rating system Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:36:16 +0200 On 11 Jul 2006, at 16:24, Jordan Sparks wrote: > rating system is to deter imbeciles I frequently give Jon Depres a > poor > rating, regardless of his latest pseudonym. The problem will not be solved until secure IDs are required. There are other problems with the Rating System which results in too few responses and therefore unstable ratings. Perhaps it is time for a summary of Rating System performance. dss David Stodolsky davidstodolsky@xxxxxxx Skype: davidstodolsky Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28211 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 06:54:03 -0700 (PDT) From: human screener <humanscreener@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: TMT: Times (UK) article-- paradox, zygote screen-- DNA blacklist--rating system Retrolink for this Topic Monitor Thread (TMT) http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28198 Update Anthony has asked me to answer each of his points [12][15] but I'm not up to it. It's good enough for my original purpose that he has raised interesting questions-- some of which are the kinds of questions that my pointing to the paradox in the first place were intended to raise. Thanks Anthony.[18] Since we both agree that it would be more interesting to see the DNA blacklist, it's more important to follow up on that rather than try to resolve the problems Anthony points to at this time. I'll report back here when I hear from the lab. You can bookmark my Cryonet archive page and check for that update anytime in the future if you're not reading Cryonet all the time.[17] Thanks for the positive rating, Jordan.[16]. It looks like you've triggered another round of discussion about the rating system. Human screener might face screening, himself, soon and join the blacklisted zygotes. Yikes! I appear to inadvertently be participating in posting activity that may result in my own demise! What a paradox! Notes [12] Anthony raises questions to think about. http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28196 [15] Anthony, more on DNA blacklist. http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28201 [16] Jordan Sparks on rating system. http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28199 [17] Human screener's Cryonet messages http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/findmsgs.cgi?author=human%20screener [18] Anthony's Cryonet messages http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/findmsgs.cgi?author=anthony%20. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28211 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28212 From: "egg plant" <eggplant107@xxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: CryoNet #28197 - #28206 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 16:26:18 +0000 "Anthony ." <autophagy@xxxxxxxxx> >Perhaps it'd be easier to say what there should be laws on rather than >shouldn't be, but that is still probably a long list of laws Good laws are no different than anything else, if you want to maximize something then make it a commodity and sell it on the free market. Nobody does that for law very much, that's why there are far more good cars than good laws. In a world with minimal government Privately Produced Law (PPL) would have Private Protection Agencies (PPA's) to back them up. Disputes among PPA's would be settled by an independent arbitrator agreed to by both parties BEFORE the disagreement happened. Something like that can exist today. When companies sign complicated contracts they sometimes also agree on who will arbitrate it if differences in interpretation happen. Nobody wants to get caught up in the slow, expensive court system run by governments. The arbitrator is paid by the case, and because he is picked by both sides, it's in his interest to be as just as possible. If he favored one side over another or made brutal or stupid decisions he would not be picked again and would need to look for a new line of work. Unlike present day judges and juries, justice would have a positive survival value for the arbitrator. All parties would have a reason to avoid violence if possible. The disputing parties would not want to turn their front yard into a war zone, and violence is expensive. The successful protection agencies would be more interested in making money than saving face. Most of the time this would work so I expect the total level of violence to be less than in the nation state system we have now, but I'm not such a utopian as to suggest it will drop to zero. Even when force is not used the implicit threat is always there, another good reason to be civilized. Please note that I'm not talking about justice only for the rich. If a rich man's PPA makes unreasonable demands (beatings, sidewalk justice, I insist on my mother being the judge if I get into trouble) it's going to need one hell of a lot of firepower to back it up. That kind of an army is expensive because of the hardware needed and because of the very high wages it will need to pay its employees for an extremely dangerous job. To pay for all this they will need to charge their clients enormous fees severely limiting their customer base and that means even higher charges. They could never get the upper hand, because the common man's PPA would be able to outspend a PPA that had outrageous demands and was just for the super rich. A yacht cost a lot more than a car, yet the Ford motor Company is far richer than all the yacht builders on the planet combined. No system can guarantee justice to everybody all the time but you'd have the greatest chance of finding it in Anarcho-capitalism. In a dictatorship one man's whim can lead to hell on earth, I don't see how 40 million Germans could have murdered 6 million Jews in a Anarcho-capitalistic world. Things aren't much better in a Democracy, 51% can decide to kill the other 49% ,nothing even close to that is possible in Anarchy, even theoretically. In general, the desire not to be killed is much stronger than the desire to kill a stranger, even a Jewish stranger. Jews would be willing to pay as much as necessary, up to and including their entire net worth not to be killed. I doubt if even the most rabid anti Semite would go much beyond 2%. As a result the PPA protecting Jews would be much stronger than the one that wants to kill them. In Anarchy, for things that are REALLY important to you (like not getting killed) you have much more influence than just one man one vote. >Do you think if there was virtually no >government, that no other strong, >resourceful political faction would try to take it over and become a "big" >government again? How can I guarantee that some Private Protection Agency won't switch from being a protector to being an oppressor? I can't. I can't give you an iron clad guarantee that the US Army wont overthrow the government and set up a military dictatorship either. They certainly have the means to do so if they wished to. I don't think that's very likely to happen, but it's far more likely than the sort of organization I'm talking about doing it. The instant it starts acting in a totalitarian way, shut off its money supply and stop its cancerous growth in the bud. That is a powerful tool that we don't have today, with the US. Army you are forced to keep sending it money even if you hate what it's doing. >you need a fairer share of wealth, health, >and security and less stealing and domination through warfare and >aggressive business (often the same thing). Translation: A Libertarian society is inferior to one where people simply do what I tell them to do. Well I confess on occasion I have had somewhat similar thoughts myself but for some reason I have had limited success convincing others as to the virtue of this view so I've decided to settle for second best. John K Clark Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28212 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28213 From: Ettinger@xxxxxxx Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 16:27:36 EDT Subject: life insurance A newspaper article July 9 said that life insurance term policies cost about a third less than they did 10 years ago, and for people still in good health it might make sense even to replace existing policies with new policies. The writer also thinks that term is best, i.e. investment and life insurance should be separate. R.E. Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28213 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of CryoNet Digest ********************* Next Message by Thread: click to view message previewCryoNet #28220 - #28226CryoNet - Sat 15 Jul 2006 #28220: "transhumanist nut-jobs, cryogenic suspension" [Eugen Leitl] #28221: 2020 competition [Jordan Sparks] #28222: Re: 2020 [Anthony .] #28223: TMTend: TimesUK article-->Zygote cryonics? [human screener] #28224: Progress in Suspension? [JOSEPH W MORGAN] #28225: Cells4Life,inc [Billy H. Seidel] #28226: 2020 revised [Anthony .] Rate This Digest: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28220%2D28226 Administrivia To subscribe to CryoNet, send email to: cryonet-request@xxxxxxxxxxx with the subject line (not message _body_): subscribe To unsubscribe, use the subject line: unsubscribe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28220 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 12:21:12 +0200 From: Eugen Leitl <eugen@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: "transhumanist nut-jobs, cryogenic suspension" Remarkable, what passes for news these days. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.07/posts.html?pg=4 Mike Duggan, a veterinary surgeon, holds his gloved hands over an 8-inch incision in the belly of pig 78-6, a 120-pound, pink Yorkshire. He s waiting for a green light from Hasan Alam, a trauma surgeon at Massachu setts General Hospital. Make the injury, Alam says. Duggan nods and slips his hands into the gash, fingers probing through inches of fat and the rosy membranes holding the organs in place. He pushes aside the intestines, ovaries, and bladder, and with a quick scalpel stroke slices open the iliac artery. It s 10:30 am. Pig 78-6 loses a quarter of her blood within moments. Heart rate and blood pressure plummet. Don t worry Alam and Duggan are going to save her. Alam goes to work on the chest, removing part of a rib to reveal the heart, a throbbing, shiny pink ball the size of a fist. He cuts open the aorta an even more lethal injury and blood sprays all over our scrubs. The EKG flatlines. The surgeons drain the remaining blood and connect tubes to the aorta and other vessels, filling the circulatory system with chilled organ-preservation fluid a nearly frozen daiquiri of salts, sugars, and free-radical scavengers. Her temperature is 50 degrees Fahrenheit; brain activity has ceased. Alam checks the wall clock and asks a nurse to mark the time: 11:25 am. But 78-6 is, in fact, only mostly dead the common term for her state is, believe it or not, suspended animation. Long the domain of transhumanist nut-jobs, cryogenic suspension may be just two years away from clinical trials on humans (presuming someone can solve the sticky ethical problems). Trauma surgeons can t wait saving people with serious wounds, like gunshots, is always a race against the effects of blood loss. When blood flow drops, toxins accumulate; just five minutes of low oxygen levels causes brain death. Chill a body, though, and you change the equation. Metabolism slows, oxygen demand dives, and the time available to treat the injury stretches. With the pig essentially dead, Alam says, we ve got hours to fix it and play around. By noon the team has stitched up the arteries and gone to lunch. It has become routine: Alam has suspended 200 pigs for an hour each, and although experimental protocol calls for different levels of care for each pig, the ones that got optimal treatment all survived. Today he ll keep 78-6 down for two hours. That afternoon, the team scrubs back in and starts pumping warm blood into 78-6, watching the heart twitch and writhe like a bag of worms as it struggles to find a rhythm. A healthy heart should feel like a rare steak, Alam explains; medium or well-done suggests muscle damage. He pokes it. Medium, he says, removing clamps to let it pump more blood. If he closes the chest too soon and the heart tires, he won t be able to save the animal. A few minutes later, Alam touches the heart again. Medium-rare, he says. Looks pretty good. But he admits he s ballparking. It s the gestalt, he says. It s not in any book. Over the next hour, the surgeons stitch up 78-6. Everyone leaves except Alam, who perches on a stool at her side. When he removes her breathing tube, she breathes irregularly a few times and he leans in with a hand venti lator, squeezing rhythmically and stroking her head. She quivers; her ear twitches. By 6 pm she s awake, draped in a blanket. Attendants roll her gurney into a recovery room with classical music playing on a radio and a healthy pig in an adjacent stall to keep her company. Pigs like that. Tests on other subjects and postmortem examinations of brains have revealed no cognitive damage from the procedure, but Alam will nevertheless stick around until 78-6 gets back on her feet, around midnight. She didn t look so great before, he says, patting the pig s side. But she s going to make it. Bijal P. Trivedi -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28220 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28221 From: "Jordan Sparks" <jsparks@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: 2020 competition Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 07:14:07 -0700 Way way way too optimistic. Quite na ve, actually. The issues are much deeper and more complex. Unless you meant it as simply an intellectual exercise, which might be the case. Jordan Sparks -----Original Message----- I've written a short, competitive article on what I think Canada will be like in 2020. The central theme is cryonics. Please view: 2020: the beginning of the end of death in Canada at http://twenty-twenty.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42 Your attention and (if deserved) praise will be appreciated! ;) Anthony Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28221 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28222 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:22:43 -0600 From: "Anthony ." <autophagy@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: 2020 Jordan Sparks writes: > Way way way too optimistic. What is optimistic? The time-frame? (Which is necessary b/c the competition is about CA in 2020). The speculated responses? (Which seem pretty dark considering most countries move to ban cryonics, the government is'nt prepared, the Pope moves against it, etc.) > Quite na ve, actually. Explain that too. > The issues are much > deeper and more complex. Of course, but see what you can do in 800 words. > Unless you meant it as simply an intellectual > exercise, which might be the case. No, it is supposed to be a competition entry seriously considering how some future development might affect Canada. I chose cryonics so that the people involved in 2020 might be exposed to it and think about it. Thanks anyway, I got better feedback from Brian Wowk. Anthony Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28222 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28223 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 07:57:22 -0700 (PDT) From: human screener <humanscreener@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: TMTend: TimesUK article-->Zygote cryonics? Continued from http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28214 Anthony has agreed with me that cryonics for discarded embryos is a valid idea insofar as cryonics goes.[20] He covered a lot of ground in that post but to maintain the rather thin connection to the original idea in this thread, -- which was that Mark's support of a screening program that discarded zygotes with an order-of-magnitude much larger DNA-blacklist constituted a possible problem (paradox or irony) since it was likely that the zygotes, given the large 6,000+ trait list, had DNA in common with Mark (or any of us)-- I'll ask Mark Plus-- if he's reading Cryonet (although most of his writing is being directed to his blog now [21])-- if-- given that he supports the screening program, would he then support a zygote-cryonics program for the discarded? The End: Anthony-- I gotta go. Thanks for the ideas.... Mark-- if you can, let readers here know what your position is on proactively preserving discarded zygotes if you will. Alcor and CI board members-- if you can, let readers know if policy accomodates frozen embryo storage. I've run out of free time. It's been fun. --human screener. [20] Anthony agrees witha and expands on zygote/embryo cryonics http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=28215 [21] Mark Plus's blog, Supersurvival Needs http://supersurvival.blogspot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28223 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28224 From: "JOSEPH W MORGAN" <Joseph_W_Morgan@xxxxxxx> Subject: Progress in Suspension? Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 08:20:01 -0700 Check out this article: ************************* Stuck Pig Wired July 2006 ************************* Cryonic suspension may be just a few years away from clinical trials on humans, based on successful suspended animation with hundreds of pigs for an hour at a time.... http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=5746&m=1405<about:blank> Content-Type: text/html; [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28224 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28225 From: "Billy H. Seidel" <seidel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Cells4Life,inc Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 06:40:19 -0800 Message #28215 Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 10:37:35 -0600 From: "Anthony ." <autophagy@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: Cryonics for embryos > Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 06:59:21 -0700 (PDT) > From: human screener <humanscreener@xxxxxxxxx> > Subject: TMT: TimesUK article-->DNA blacklist-->Cryonics for embryos > I > wonder if anyone here thinks Alcor or CI would be > willing or able-- or not-- to store cryopreserved > zygotes or embryos for future repair, reanimation, > adoption and implantation? About June 2001 a company called "Cells4Life,inc" was struggling to get started. I do not know all the details but the idea was to store cells for later cloning when needed by a patient that might require new body parts. Anthony, I think it would have been a small step to providing the service you talked about above. To make this short, I believe that ALCOR could have helped to make this company a viable operation but did not. The ALCOR board of directors knows why they did not pursue this line of thinking. So your quest for information should be directed to ALCOR. Perhaps the time is now to restart this thinking within ALCOR. Hope this helps. Billy H. Seidel Content-Type: text/html; [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28225 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #28226 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 10:04:10 -0600 From: "Anthony ." <autophagy@xxxxxxxxx> Subject: 2020 revised Hi - after receiving feedback I've edited my entry to 2020 (a contest in which Canadians are invited to imagine Canada in 2020). Most entries are concerned with global warming, water, poverty. My entry is here: http://twenty-twenty.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=42 and is called: "2020: a new life-saving technology in Canada" It also has a poll: Do you think cryonics could ever work? Yes, with the right medical advances No, medical science will only be able to go so far Only one vote, no score, no replies, 47 views (mostly mine probably). The higher the score, the more replies and views, the more my entry will be exposed. I'm not interested in winning, but in including cryonics in this debate about the future. Spare a minute to take part in the poll and score my post if you don't have time to read it and send feedback - that way we gain cryonics a little more attention. Thanks. Anthony Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=28226 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of CryoNet Digest ********************* Loading Comments...
|
|
