CryoNet #22609 - #22615

CryoNet - Wed 1 Oct 2003

    #22609: Cults, Sects, and #22605 [Steven Lacher]
    #22610: Ben Best Presidency [RUDIHOFFMA]
    #22611: Alcor's new website [Bryan Hall]
    #22612: Re: The White Lodge of Cryonics [Peter Merel]
    #22613: Expressing Relief and Hope [Kitty Antonik Wakfer]
    #22614: Scottsdale company s role in death probed  [Mark Plus]
    #22615: Re: The Great White Lodge of Cryonics [David Stodolsky]

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Message #22609
From: "Steven Lacher" <lacherclp@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Cults, Sects, and #22605
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:28:25 -0400

Hi all.....

I only post once in a great while, when I'm really motivated to.  The debate
that John Grigg and whoever that was he was answering (Peter something, sorry I
didn't catch the original mail) was about the desireability/validity of duping
deathist sheep into following a sort of "Church of Cryonics" to help us along on
our goals to successful de- and subsequent re-animation.

That idea is pure anathema to me.

To be a bit cheeky about it...you can lead a horse to the library, but you can't
make him think.  The thing about being a cryonicist is this -- it's an act of
will to make the effort to understand the reason behind doing it, and the
inherent logical and philosophical position required to get benefit from
something which may never happen.  As cryonicists, we all understand that this
entire process is a sort of reverse Pascal's wager.  (That is, if it doesn't
work, we've not lost a thing, but if it does, we win big time.)

You cannot dupe anyone into understanding this.  Nor should you even try.

I personally am happy to have a small group of other folks who think the same
way I do to ensure my dewar is undisturbed.  Those are the people I want to do
the  research to make that dewar unnneccessary at all, or at least just a
temporary stop.  It's those same contentious, motivated, intelligent, sometimes
cranky but always passionate people that I trust to use the law and social
process to protect their interests, which are also my interests.

I've no desire to hoodwink those who'd feel otherwise into acting as some sort
of workforce to protect me.  It's a disgusting idea, not just because of its
potential for failure, but because of the way it disrespects those who aren't
already in the fold with us.

I don't want to change the minds of the deathists.  I just want them to stay the
heck out of my/our way.  It's sad that they choose to throw their lives away for
whatever their reasons are, rather than try to extend them.  But they are THEIR
lives, and they are free to do with them as they like.

Just so long as they recognise we have the same right to try like heck to keep
our own lives going.  You can't ask for respect, tolerance and freedom without
being willing to give them in equal share.

Just my two cents.

--sincerely
--Steven Lacher, Alcor member

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Message #22610
From: RUDIHOFFMA@xxxxxxx
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:04:34 EDT
Subject: Ben Best Presidency

I add my "Congratulations" to Ben Best, upon taking the "Captain's Seat" of 
Cryonics Institute.  

Given the current state of the Michigan regulators this is a critical 
juncture in Cryonics.  I have great confidence in the ability of Ben Best, Bob 
Ettinger, Dave Ettinger, Andy Zawacki, and other leaders at CI, to handle these 
regulators competently.  

Ben Best was one of my roommates at one of the ALCOR conferences.  He is a 
very bright and capable man.  He does his homework.  His website and writing 
are 
well researched, and he is unflinching in analysis, even self-analysis.  His 
writings are rigorous, scientific, and erudite.  

I join with others in the cryonics community (even if this community is not 
cult-like enough for some LOL) in wishing CI the best with Best.

Rudi Hoffman


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Message #22611
From: "Bryan Hall" <bryan8266@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Alcor's new website
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:40:29 -0700

I just wanted to say that I think Alcor's new website is the best ever. It's 
very user friendly and well organized. Good work to whoever re-did it.

Putting back issues of Cryonics Magazine online was a great idea.
http://alcor.org/CryonicsMagazine/

-Bryan Hall


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Message #22612
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 11:40:23 -0700
Subject: Re: The White Lodge of Cryonics
From: Peter Merel <peter@xxxxxxxxxx>

Thanks to all for various public and private replies on this. I've 
picked out the ones that cover the main talking points.

--

David Stolsky wrote,

> I don't think this is supported by data. While there have been few
> studies, unrealistic estimates of cost seem to generate a major
> objection people have toward cryonics.

I don't think cost perception by itself is a sufficent explanation for 
our wild unpopularity.

To illustrate, there are many orders of magnitude more people in the 
world signed up for expensive crypts than for cheap cryonics. Why does 
someone lay out thousands for a crypt - or even a plush casket? One 
member of my immediate family has done just this despite my urging to 
the contrary. Her reason is that she doesn't want to contemplate her 
body being treated badly. Even knowing, rationally, that she'll have no 
experience of same. This makes perfect sense when I think of the 
various gewgaws and photos she keeps carefully arranged under lock and 
key. Her body has still greater sentimental value to her than these.

It's similarly important to her that her body enjoys close proximity to 
the bodies of her beloveds and friends. She sees the crypt as like her 
house or car - a way to maintain her role in the social structure. Even 
when - especially when - that structure is set in stone.

Thinking about bodies sentimentally or socially is not rational. But 
most of life is not rational. Here on cryonet we regard ourselves as 
scientists and engineers, but who among us doesn't spending several 
hours every day on something that has nothing to recommend it but that 
we find it aesthetically, spiritually, or socially compelling? Our 
lives are not made out of rational elements - if they were, we'd be 
bees.

After 2 generations of marketing, 2,999,999 people out of every 
3,000,000 people on the planet find cryonics too vain, too threatening, 
too speculative, or too inaccessible for their needs. It should be 
obvious that this isn't about the price - it's about the product. 
People don't need our product, so they won't buy it at any price. Not 
even when it's free! Last year's New Scientist competition illustrated 
that.

> Suspended animation is widely
> accepted as a future technology associated with space flight and many
> people believe that it is within the range of current technology.

Hundreds of millions of people love Star Trek and Star Wars. But only 
12 guys walked on the moon. Just because someone says they like the 
idea of something doesn't mean they want to do it. They like it as a 
fantasy, a place to dream about. The everyday fantasist will no more 
shell out for cryonics than for Lagrange point colonies.

> The type of Zen which includes long fasts might be a better bet. The
> most holy are men that have, thru starvation and consumption of
> selected fluids, 'mummified' themselves.

Suspect you're thinking of the old tao chiao immortality pill. Full of 
heavy metals. Feed pills to a gullible subject for a while until they 
perish. The toxins keep their body from decaying while you cart them 
around the landscape in a wheel-barrow explaining how they've attained 
a "jade body" and are happily disporting on the celestial plane. Stick 
a few colored ribbons on 'em to prove it. Commence jade-izing gullible 
nobles - assuming ownership of their various estates in return - until 
you're a full fledged noble yourself.

> So, while the details of what is being suggested are probably
> incorrect, the overall point is valid. Venturism, as currently
> structured, doesn't function as system to guide persons toward cryonic
> suspension as a logical and inevitable step, but only to protect those
> already committed to it.

If we place the noble venturists at the heart of the White Lodge we 
could think of it as an evangelical program for them. It would provide 
different paths of approach for different faiths, reinterpreting their 
holy texts to facilitate same. If they can't get from there to here any 
other way, why not build a bridge?

Just as John Grigg says, the Masons have had a lot of success doing 
this. The friendly-society route would be considerably less dangerous 
and more accessible than starting up a church. Good enough for the 
Bavarian Illuminati, good enough for us.

--

Charles Platt writes,

> it looked to me as if "Man into Superman" was aimed
> along the lines that Peter has in mind; and it didn't gather many (if 
> any)
> hardcore adherents.

I agree that transhumanism as a bald-faced faith won't hunt. What's 
proposed is to piggy back instead on some demonstrably long-lived 
social organizing principle.

> Second, an adoption of the apostolic approach would be a tacit 
> admission
> that we are engaged in a faith-based rather than a science-based 
> endeavor.
> This could discourage more people than it might attract. It would
> certainly discourage me.

I'd be discouraged too. This is why I thought to make the process of 
elevation in the White Lodge one requiring the transformation of faith 
into rationalism. But this is naive of me - I've yet to meet any 
religious person who was interested in dumping faith per se. Even those 
who've switched from, say, catholicism to buddhism or atheism still 
seem to need the discipline of contemplation and the assertion of 
creed. The objects of faith change, but faith itself - the need to 
replace ambiguity with axiom - appears to be a psychological constant.

So Charles is right and this idea won't hunt either.

> Third, while apostles will devote a great deal of time and energy for 
> "the
> cause" (whatever the cause may be) their dedication can be dangerous,
> especially in a field where we are dealing with delicate situations. 
> For
> instance, I would not want a hardcore apostle making any critical
> decisions regarding last-minute cases or legal paperwork.

This third criticism is very telling.

Having recently caught a disturbing History Channel show on the Hitler 
Youth, I had occasion to think about what it would be like to actually 
deal, day to day, with mind-fucked thralls. Not something I think any 
of us would be willing to do, and very, very easy for it to run off the 
rails. The thought of the FBI spending a few weeks outside the White 
Lodge cryo-compound playing Bruce Springsteen at top volume in 
preparation for fire-bombing the place is not an appealing one.

> But lack of public interest in research into human
> cryopreservation is much harder for me to understand than lack of 
> public
> interest in cryonics.

I don't think the public is really interested in anything they can't 
buy right now. The question for me is rather why there seems no great 
commercial interest in it. So many people awaiting transplants and no 
one working to create pricey organ banks? It scarcely seems credible.

--

John Grigg writes,

> It's amazing cryonics got this far with such a dedicated but small 
> core group but I do not believe it is running out talented & dedicated 
> adherents who can take it the rest of the way.  Yes, the leaders in a 
> cryonics organization can be worn down by the pressures but that is no 
> reason to start up "The Church of Alcor" or "The Church of the 
> Cryonics Institute" quite yet...

Not proposing to. The reason I posted is it occurs to me that a 
corporation might not actually be a sufficient organizing principle to 
keep people reliably stored over multiple generations. So then the 
question is, what other kinds of organization do we have available to 
us? Churches, friendly societies, charities, banks, and nations - seems 
to be about it.

I actually think "The Bank of Alcor" would be best. But don't suppose 
banks are very easy to start. Nations are still harder. A charity might 
do it, and we already have elements of that in Alcor - anatomical gifts 
anyway. I like the idea of tidy young men on bicycles going door to 
door collecting contributions to freeze the needy.

"Dear sir or madam, needy people, many of them children, will die 
tonight if you don't dig deep. Right here in this city - the place 
where you live. But you can save them. You can help us help them. Help 
us fund the local cryonics chamber where these poor children can sleep 
safely through their long night. Where they can be cared for in 
preparation for that great day when they will rise up. Oh yes, sister, 
that day is coming - praise Drexler!"

Okay, so I got a little carried away there at the end.

> Even many rationalists in the form of secular humanists and militant 
> atheists reject cryonics! lol  I HONESTLY BELIEVE THE GROUP TO APPEAL 
> TO ARE YOUNG PEOPLE IN COLLEGE WHO ARE STILL LOOKING FOR THEIR PLACE 
> IN LIFE.

"Give me the child until he is seven, and I will give you the man" -- 
Jesuits

> Immortality is OUR problem for now until mainstream scientists solve 
> it over the next 30-80 years.  And so we have cryonics as our 
> theoretical safety net in the meantime.  I realize some cryonicists 
> hope the baby boomer generation will see things our way as they get 
> older and have to start considering their own mortality but I have my 
> doubts.

If they're not rational now, they're hardly likely to become rational 
in their dotage. The boomers, if one can generalize about 'em, seem a 
pretty apathetic and self-satisfied bunch of people. They're the first 
generation that grew up on the glass teat. Difficult to imagine they're 
not happier fantasizing about it than actually doing it.

> Peter, do you realize the public and journalists can easily access 
> Cryonet?  This is NOT what I want them to be reading about us.

I could say the same about a lot of recent posts to cryonet. Actually I 
did say the same. :-)
But seriously, what do you think they might say about us that they 
don't already say?

> There IS a terrible moral problem in proposing we brainwash people 
> into joining a cryonics cult, even a benign one.

As I said:

>> I'm not proposing to do this per se. I'm proposing that we talk about 
>> it and turn it over in our minds. Look at the angles. I personally 
>> don't want to enslave
>> anyone. I prefer to think we could do this by actually freeing 
>> enslaved
>> minds.

> I do think if something like this were ever done the Masons are the 
> group which should be closely looked at and copied.

I agree strongly here. So ... what do the Masons do that your 
Venturists don't?

> The pillory is just too good for you! : )

But your post was well deserved. Thank you.

> These are good observations but in time due to the Ventureville 
> community we will see a dual function where we not only protect our 
> members by providing a home/community for them (and even a way of life 
> to an extent!) but also reach out and try to persuade people to join 
> us.

I should mention that the property I've purchased in Australia might 
conceivably be adapted to a similar purpose one day. When I am more 
settled and have more time for it I want to consider this prospect 
carefully.

Peter Merel.

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Message #22613
From: "Kitty Antonik Wakfer" <kitty@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Expressing Relief and Hope
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 18:30:02 -0400

To those interested in bettering the current situation of cryonics and willing 
to do
soul-searching and take the time to understand ... really. The message below has
implications for the present and future of cryonics - for the growth of the
individuals who want to see a better "community".  ...There really is a future 
in the
past...a saving of the situation now... I invite those reading me to just take 
the
time to listen, and travel with me...I will tell/show you a story that can be 
very
interesting/enlightening/discouraging/inspiring....it's up to the individual and
his/her ability/willingness to stop/turn/look/consider/wonder.

I was hoping to get this completed to make the cutoff for the 9/30 edition, but 
it
became evident a few minutes ago that this would not happen. Instead I may be 
the
first for 10/1 and this is good enough since Charles and Ben will be getting a
private copy. I want to give assistance to Charles and congratulations to Ben,
because in the past I have had my own difficulties in being friends with both of
them - maybe because at those times I had not learned yet to fully appreciate 
our
similarities and wonder at the possibility of strength in our differences. I 
have
gained much insight with this manic episode - the countless winding and 
unwinding in
so many directions at almost the same time in the same place - I have been going
through since 9/22.  But I have now learned that if I can continue to maintain 
my
balance in all these dimensions/planes; I can do more than endure.  I can renew 
and
grow - wind and rewind with control - *my* control; not that of imposed/forced
medication/hospitalization. I can ensure my own survival by using my own 
talents and
those of others with whom I choose to associate.

To my/our upstairs neighbor, Ben, come on down and let's listen and dance to 
Alan
Parsons Project's "I, Robot" together and wonder at the power of the words and 
music
and the relevance for us - to our individual histories/present. Charles, if you
aren't familiar with this music group, you may want to investigate - there is
strength/support/therapy in music - and dance. When we are in AZ in a few 
weeks, we
hope that you will want to drive south and visit at our house - I want to limit
travel and keep to our home base (either of the 2) as much as possible for a 
while.

A special public congratulations once again to Jerry Lemler. Jerry, I could in 
my way
feel the difficult (to put it mildly) sensations/emotions you were/are 
experiencing
in this most difficult/painful/fearful series/collection of events/activities. 
I have
many times been in positions of assistance to individuals who have been somewhat
where you stand now. The big difference now though is that you have a life boat 
with
your name on it just waiting for you to need it...This is such an important
difference that it can provide much peace - if the the life boat is of the best
quality material. But if it is not, then we do not know...we can only
hope/wonder/fear.

And assurance is what has been sorely missing from cryonics all these many 
years.
Wishing just does not make it so, no matter how many wishers there are... It 
takes
cold/hard facts/science/work/honesty...Now, finally there appears to be 
sufficient
willingness by serious "players" to look inside the box/self and 
consider/wonder if
there is something more, something else that is obstructing progress...
something(s)/someone(s) that would help solve the problem(s)...
The show must go on...if we want more... if we want to comeback and continue to
play/investigate/produce/play/wonder/enjoy/learn....day after day the show must 
go
on - we want to go w/ time on our side... I have hope.. I am 
relieved/hopeful/...in
some wonder that the puzzle is solvable/understandable/beneficial/valuable... 
in a
sense it is mind expanding - but could be painful/fearful for those who don't 
have
assurance that an individual can learn how to see the dots/relevance and how to
connect/relate them and understand that there is value in the connections .... 
that
it is a tool of understanding about oneself and others and how to improve
relationships... in order to work together..to grow..to succeed... -->>
metamorphosis. -->>survival, Survival, SURVIVAL. It can be done. Each of us can
achieve so much more understanding/knowledge....we can work together better ....

That is enough for now...anyone who has read this far should get the 
picture....I
think/hope I wrote it well enough...If not, you'll just have to watch the movie 
:>)

**Kitty

PS: 18:21 09/30/03  ...Paul has just completed review of the above message and 
is
comfortable w/ it being sent {cd changer holding Alan Parsons Project 
CD:Stereotomy
in the #1 position; track 2...sipping red wine, eating salmon dinner leftovers 
from
last night... better// have been taking Lithium 100mg BID - last dose 10:20 
today...
..better..better.. i ok...  ...>>>> track 3 starting...  ...  ... back
later...later.. i ok..[position 5 in changer is being held by Alan Parsons (new 
group
project): Time Machine ..!!<>  ** oh boy.....lok...i am ok..your' ok too...just 
give
it time..to settle to get balance..s.... later...Up uplll.ok..yes..

**********************
From: Kitty Antonik Wakfer [kitty@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 4:50 AM
To: Aubrey de Grey
Subject: RE: IABG 10: Would you like to write a meeting report?

Hi Aubrey,

I've already started a report on the effects of IABG10 on me personally, which 
is a
severe situation but has applications for all other attendees. This one in 
progress
will be multi-faceted and actually has an objective the understanding by others 
of
how I - a manic depressive (bipolar) - reacted to an enormously stress-filled,
rest-deprived, thought provoking 3.5 days. I have been collecting data on 
myself and
the coping mechanisms that I utilized and "developed" with this, my 4th episode 
since
the initial one in 1975, diagnosed as acute dissociative reaction - simply a 
label
for the displayed signs and symptoms.  This "case history" and patient/nurse's 
notes
will be an entry in the Kitty Reflects on MoreLife
<http://morelife.org/personal/kittyreflects/>. (It will take a week or two for 
me to
do this while attending to other MoreLife business.)

I intend to make some specific suggestions for improved conferences and team 
building
activities, with the objective being *optimum* levels of stress for each 
individual
for his/her own health of body and mind. This is important - vitally so - not 
just
because of the essential value of the individual's health to himself because of 
the
principle of the I and the non-I (see Natural Social Contract_annotated
<http://selfsip.org/solutions/socialcontract_annotated.html>), but because once 
this
principle is followed and respected by large numbers of people, the interactions
between them - and even with those who have not fully reached this level of
understanding - will be far better for *all*. The order of importance is the 
*I* -
and then the other individuals of the non-I; the order can *not* be reversed. 
This
lesson must be learned by those who are, with all good will and enthusiasm for 
the
enormity and importance of the problem to be solved, tending to stuff as much as
physically possible for them personally and the facilities they are using.  
Failure
to remember that each potential and actual team member brings with him to an
intensive conference/training session his own set of physical/psychological
"problems", can result in damage at some level to the individual and risk of 
reduced
effectiveness of the team as a whole.

Since I'm almost there with a verbal picture of what occurred - and is only 
just now
resolving itself for the better for me, and for Paul and I as a team/couple - 
is the
manic episode I have been in since Monday 9/22/03 - "Manic Monday". You and 
others
saw me that night and the following day in a controlled mania which was almost
entirely of pleasure, w/ a much lesser aspect of depression in the background -
Paul's periodic expressed feelings of depression, of being "out of place". I 
have
been on my own personal search for further understanding of 
everything/(portions of
everything) for how/where/why there are interconnections/relationships between 
them
now/(in the past)/(in the future) for me and others.  It has been a lonely 
journey at
time because of the confusion and fear such a search can create, or at least 
the fear
in me that such a expedition causes.  The travel was initially fascinating and 
most
pleasurable and didn't become really uncomfortable until Wednesday 9/24 because 
of my
failure to get adequate rest/relaxation during the waking hours and actual 
sleep at
night from Friday 9/19. By Wed, I was in a "driven search" and have only now
*finally* understood why I've been searching, searching - > Survival... of the
individual, chosen teams, and the entire human race (all individuals who choose 
to
understand why and how). I think I have found a tool that will allow others to
visually connect with the experiences of my search - my visual autobiography.  
That's
enough for now as a written explanation; better understanding can really only be
attained by an in-person discussion with specific background music that is 
extremely
complementary to my view of myself.  If you (and Adelaide too, an important
ingredient for full comprehension/appreciation) will be coming to Toronto or 
Phoenix
anytime during the year when we are in residence in either of those locations, 
you
are most welcome to visit with us. The added learning experience of such a 
meeting
would be valuable to both of us/(our teams)/(our individual/combined projects).

I hope that Adelaide has fully recovered from her cold.  And an added note - I
*thoroughly* enjoyed the punting - both of them - and look forward to a similar
adventure in learning about various people.  Both trips were a good team 
building
experience and .... I am getting ahead of myself; I am still doing it.. My 
level of
synchronicity is still fragile. I am tired and will, I think though, now 
finally be
able to start getting more sleep.

**Kitty

**Kitty Antonik Wakfer
MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aubrey de Grey [mailto:ag24@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 12:11 PM
> To: iabg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: ag24@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: IABG 10: Would you like to write a meeting report?
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I am already thinking about how to make sure that the success of IABG10
> translates into good things for future meetings and the enhanced profile
> of biomedical gerontology in general.  I am sure that the most important
> thing at this point is to let the world know how successful IABG 10 was.
> Therefore, I am writing to ask you whether you would be interested in
> writing a meeting report.  A few journals have asked me to write one,
> but they will be much more influential if someone other than me writes
> them (and also, it is important that a lot of them are written!).

<snip>


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Message #22614
From: "Mark Plus" <markplus@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Scottsdale company s role in death probed 
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:46:37 -0700

http://www.arizonatribune.com/index.php?sty=10636

Scottsdale company s role in death probed
By Bill Bertolino, Tribune
Los Angeles homicide detectives are investigating the 1992 death of a man 
whose remains are frozen at Scottsdale-based Alcor Life Extension 
Foundation, the cryonics company known nationally for storing human bodies, 
including that of baseball icon Ted Williams.

At the heart of the investigation is whether or not a former Alcor employee 
injected a terminally ill AIDS patient with a paralytic drug to hasten his 
death, the Tribune has learned.

Brian Carr, a detective with the Los Angeles Police Department, confirmed 
that the death is being investigated as a result of allegations and evidence 
turned over by former Alcor chief operating officer Larry Johnson, who left 
the company in August.

 I can t really talk much about it at this point,  said Carr, who works in 
the department s robbery and homicide division.  It s still under 
investigation. 

Carr said he interviewed Johnson about the case.
Johnson first notified Los Angeles authorities of an  unusual homicide  
through his attorney.
In a letter sent in mid-July, lawyer John A. Heer told police that Johnson 
had evidence that  instead of waiting for nature to take its course, one of 
the members of the suspension team injected the victim with a paralytic 
chemical which stopped the victim s heart and breathing within minutes. 

Evidence Johnson and his attorney said they have turned over to 
investigators includes conversations Johnson secretly recorded with two men 
he identified as Alcor executives. The Tribune has obtained copies of the 
recordings.

On one recording, a man Johnson identified as Alcor senior board member and 
facilities engineer Hugh Hixon states he was at the scene of the AIDS 
patient s death when a then-Alcor employee injected the man with a drug 
known to have the ability to paralyze patients and stop their breathing.

The then-employee administered the injection,  and after about seven or 
eight minutes (the patient) quit breathing, which was entirely to be 
expected,  Hixon states on the recording. The Tribune is withholding the 
name of the former employee Hixon identified because the employee could not 
be located for comment. Contacted Friday, Hixon said,  I m declining 
comment.  He referred questions to Alcor CEO Jerry Lemler, who did not 
return calls from the Tribune seeking comment.

On another recording, a man Johnson identified as another Alcor executive 
states he has knowledge of the AIDS patient s death. He said the information 
would  absolutely destroy  Alcor if it became public.

The executive adds:  If it came down to a court issue, you know, who s gonna 
say anything? Who is going to admit anything? It s deniable. 

The Tribune is also withholding the identity of the executive at this time 
because he could not be reached for comment. The investigation into the AIDS 
patient s death is the latest inquiry for Alcor, a nonprofit organization in 
north Scottsdale that freezes human bodies and brains in liquid nitrogen, in 
the hope that medical breakthroughs may one day restore the dead to life.

The company has the remains of at least 58 people frozen, at a charge of 
about $120,000 for a full-body suspension.

Last month, Alcor received national attention for its treatment of Williams 
  the Hall of Fame Boston Red Sox slugger whose remains are stored at Alcor.

Sports Illustrated first reported in August that Alcor severed Williams  
head, drilled holes in it, fractured the skull and misplaced DNA samples, 
among other allegations. Alcor has never publicly acknowledged ownership of 
Williams  body and has denied that his DNA is missing from the facility.

The story spawned a lawsuit by Alcor against Johnson, who supplied the 
magazine with the information on Williams. Among other claims in its 
lawsuit, Alcor charges Johnson violated a confidentiality agreement and 
stole company information and property.

Johnson worked for Alcor from January until Aug. 11, when he said he was 
fired. He has since filed a counterclaim against Alcor, charging the company 
falsely accused him of committing theft, fraud and breach of 
confidentiality. Johnson also charges the company has slandered him.

Alcor also has a contentious history with California authorities.
In 1987, the company was rocked by a scandal involving the death of 
Riverside, Calif., resident Dora Kent. Authorities questioned whether she 
was legally dead when her head was removed and frozen. The case was dropped 
after extensive legal wrangling.

Alcor moved its headquarters in 1994 from Riverside to Scottsdale, where the 
company is housed in a building in the Scottsdale Airpark. It has 12 
employees.

On the audio recording between Johnson and Hixon, Hixon states that he was 
at the home of the AIDS patient whose death is now under investigation 
because he was in charge of transporting the man s body.

As the crew waited for the man to die, Hixon states they prepared a 
makeshift operating room inside a detached garage near the home. Alcor 
workers put together plastic drop cloths, lightweight wood and twine,  and 
we built ourselves a little operating suite in the garage,  Hixon states.

The Alcor crew eventually carried the dying man down the stairs of his home, 
placed him on a gurney and wheeled him down the street to the garage, where 
they waited for him to die, Hixon states.

 We waited quite a while,  Hixon states.  He was not very far away from 
dying. 

Hixon then states that the former Alcor employee asked an assistant to 
prepare an injection of Metubine, a paralytic drug.

The assistant, Tanya Jones,  didn t know what it was for,  Hixon states.
Later on the recording, Hixon adds:  Anyway, so the guy quit breathing. He 
wasn t very far from quitting breathing, but, uh, we don t like that kind of 
thing. 

Reached on Saturday by cell phone in Southern California, Jones initially 
declined comment.

 Let me just find out what is going on,  Jones said.  And what I can say and 
what I can t say, you know. It would be simple enough to either confirm or 
deny the presence of that someone.  I haven t thought about that case in a 
very, very long time. 

Jones added that she took a job with Alcor on Friday after a 6 1/2-year 
hiatus from the company.

Hixon also indicates on the recording that a growing concern was that the 
Alcor team might get tied up in traffic when they had to transport the AIDS 
patient s remains.

 It wasn t anything that wasn t going to happen,  Hixon states regarding the 
man s death.  And we did beat the traffic. 

The other Alcor executive indicates on an audio recording that he was not at 
the scene but had knowledge of the circumstances that caused the AIDS 
patient s death. He states the AIDS patient s death occurred in 1992 in Los 
Angeles.

 Look, morally I have no objection to doing that sort of thing,  he states. 
 I think Dr. (Jack) Kevorkian is a great man. But we live in a real world. 
We just can t do stuff like that. 

The company executive states that the incident caused Alcor to sever its 
relationship with the employee who injected the paralytic drug.

 That s when we decided, Alcor decided, this guy is just too dangerous to 
have around,  he states.

Johnson, who agreed to an interview with the Tribune only on the condition 
that the newspaper not reveal his address or publish a photo of him, said he 
became frightened when he learned that a former Alcor employee may have 
hastened the death of the AIDS patient.

He said he prompted his attorney to contact Los Angeles police. Heer said 
Saturday that he had several conversations with detectives in early July. 
Heer is also the attorney for Bobby-Jo Ferrell, Ted Williams  eldest child, 
who was at the heart of a family dispute last year over the handling of the 
former baseball star s remains.

Contact Bill Bertolino by email <bbertolino@xxxxxxxxxx>, or phone (480) 
970-2352

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Message #22615
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:25:42 +0200
Subject: Re: The Great White Lodge of Cryonics
From: David Stodolsky <david.stodolsky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 06:45  PM, John Grigg wrote:

> If we had more adherents, more potential income sources, that might
> change. But the mode of presentation of cryonics we have used since the
> publication of Ettinger's book will never provide such change. We
> appeal to rationalists. And there simply aren't many of them.
> (end)
>
> Even many rationalists in the form of secular humanists and militant 
> atheists reject cryonics! lol  I HONESTLY BELIEVE THE GROUP TO APPEAL 
> TO ARE YOUNG PEOPLE IN COLLEGE WHO ARE STILL LOOKING FOR THEIR PLACE 
> IN LIFE.


This may be true if it is a way of life that is being offered. If it is 
cryonic suspension, then the best time is in middle age, when people 
are coming to terms with their mortality.


dss


David S. Stodolsky  davidstodolsky@xxxxxxx  SpamTo: bin@xxxxxxxxxxxx

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