[The following was written in response to off list
discussion that was spawned by Prof. Levine’s post on this
matter].
Let me preface this by saying that I have no expertise in
Kisvei Arizal and
in the various versions of the manuscripts and prints etc.
I am also not an
expert in minhogim at all, but Torah hi ulilmod ani
tzorich.
Let me summarize what Yaari writes (thanks to Dr Levine
for a link to
the PDF - See http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/yaari_hakafos.pdf
):
First he has a whole discussion (p 261-266) about the
source of going
around the bima, and shows that until the time of the Ari,
they did not go around 7
times, rather only once (in those places that went
around at all).
From 266 he quotes Shaar Hakavonos (SH) of R' Chaim Vital
(RCV), that the
minhog was to go around 7 times, and that this took place ST
after
Shacharis, Mincha and Motzei ST. Then he
quotes R' Yaakov Tzemch (RYT) in
Nogid Umtzaveh, this minhog
in the name of Ari, but with the important difference, that RYT brings it as if
hakofos took place the NIGHT of ST and the morning. The same in Chemdas Hayomim
(CH), where after he brings similar to what RYT writes, he complains about those
that don't do hakofos the night of ST.
Yaari assumes that the discrepancy between the Shaar
Hakavonos and RYT and
CH, is explained by the fact that RYT and CH used
corrupted manuscripts,
while the "proper version" of the Shaar Hakavonos was
only printed much (almost 150) later, in 1852.
He then goes on the bring the Shelah, who apparently does
not mention
hakofos at all, and several Sefardim from a hundred years
later,
that do mention it concerning the night of ST. Ad kan devorov.
In summary, his point is that 7 hakofos is an
invention
of the Ari, and that the Ari did hakofos on ST day and Motzoei ST,
and
that the later ones who bring minhog Arizal for ST night were based on
a
corrupted manuscript.
Leaving aside the question, that if the Ramo brings a
minhog of hakofos
(at least one) - by day and night, would not have the
Shelah mentioned it?
Are we to conclude that he disagreed with making even
one hakofo?
Also, everyone agrees that Ari did hakofos (whether by
day or by night) - why
would the Shelah not mention them at all? Are we to
presume that the Shalo did
not hold of the minhog of the Ramo either, in
addition to minhog of Arizal?
In fact, he brings NONE of the minhogim of ST?! So are we
to conclude he did
none of the minhogim?
Point being - omission may not be a proof of
anything.
In addition, we will leave aside the question, that if
(according to
Yaari) RYT and CH had their own manuscripts of Shaar Hakavonos,
that do
not match the printed version (published over a hundred years
later) – “mi
gilo lo roz zeh?” of which is the correct version of SH?
Maybe the edition first printed in Saloniko 1852 is the
corrupted version?!
This is a matter that we should leave to the
experts...
However, I believe Yaari’s entire argument is based on an
error.
RYT and CH were not quoting the SH, but rather the Pri
Eitz Chaim (PEC), which incidentally, was printed MUCH before the
SH - which Yaari does not reference at all - in Shaar Halulov Perek 8, where he
writes:
"Minhog Yisroel, shebeyom SA osim simcha gedolo lifnei
hasforim, umakifin zayin hakofos im hasforim, vekorin oso simchas torah ...
(here he brings the Zohar) ... va'ani ro’isee lemori Z'L, shehoyo holech lifnei
hasforim, vehoyo meraked umeranen vesome’ach bechol yecholto bechol hazayin
hakofos belaylo. ubeyom lo reisi..." - which is exactly the wording of RYT!
Similarly the CH is basing himself on the PEC and not on
the SH.
I have seen quoted a similar signon from 2 Siddurei
Arizal (which I do not own) - apparently also based on the PEC. [I also saw a
reference to Mishnas Chassidim, but I am not sure of the exact wording there, as
I do not have it either].
Now of course one can claim that there is a contradiction
in the Arizal
(or rather - RCV) between PEC and SH, but I see no evidence of
corrupted
manuscripts, especially since talmidim of RCV - RYT, and the
compilers of
of Siddur Arizal (plus the anonymous author of CH), must have
had the minhog to do
it the night of ST, which (to my mind) would be a
stretch to say that they were relying ONLY on corrupted manuscripts, and not on
a actual minhog that they witnessed and kept).
Concerning doing hakofos the night of SA, which sparked
this discussion -
I no longer see the problem, since once we accept the
version of PEC (as
was accepted by CH, RYT, Siddur Arizal) that he did
hakofos the night of
ST, therefore the minhog chassidim just extended that
minhog in chutz
lo'oretz to SA (as written also in the CH, and see Shaar
Yisoschor of the Munkatcher who deals with this issue - though he does not bring
the CH (for understandable reasons). and feels -and so was his minhog - that
hakofos should be done the day of SA also!).
One further point: The chiddush of Arizal on ST was not
so much the idea
of hakofos - which are mentioned already in Ramo and in
earlier sources
(as brought by Yaari) - the chiddush was in SEVEN hakofos
(though the PEC
refers to it as a "minhog yisroel"!) vs 1. It seems strange
to me
that Arizal would not have done hakofos AT ALL the night of ST (which
was
already a common minhog by many), and ONLY did them in the morning
(and
the night after).
One last point: The question will not only be on
"Chassidim", but on all
those that make 7 hakofos ST night and day (which I
believe is the common
minhog) – and which according to Yaari would have no
source at all, because
of the same "corrupted
reading".
Bottom line: The minhog of hakofos at night of ST, and
(according to those that do it) on SA, is not a mistake, but has strong sources
IMHO.
CGS
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Uman/Leaving the women behind
RnCL, quoting Sukkah 27b:
"as Rav Yitzchak says, from
where do we know that a man is obligated to visit his rav on the
festival as it is written "why are you going to him today it not being
new moon or shabbat" and we can infer from there that on new moon and
shabbat one is obligated to visit one's Rav."
Interesting source - in that case (Melachim Bet 4:23), the WIFE was going to
visit the Navi and was questioned by her husband (it's the story of Elisha
and the Shunamit).
- Ilana
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Re: nice things about EY (from areivim)
From: "saul mashbaum" <smash52@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> RSBA
> I have heard beshem the CS z'l that when Moshiach comes there will be a
> need to establish a 'zecher' to our golus - and it will be "YT sheni shel
> goliyos", which will become a permanent fixture in our calendar.
>>>>
> Chaim G Steinmetz:
>> It is found in Droshos Chasam Sofer p 544 (in the droshos of
>> pesach). [See a slightly different take on the issue in his chidushim on
>> Beitza 4b, and tshuvos OC #145].
> Unfortunately, I have not been able to find the reference to Droshos
> Chasam Sofer p 544; the version of this sefer I have access is a five
> volume set with diffeent pagination.
I think you have been looking at the CS al hatorah 5"v 9published by RYN
Stern).The Droshos (also published - earlier by RYNS - has it as I wrote,
included
in a nice vort about how the actual yestizias miztarayim took place on YTS
shel galiyos..
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Re: What is the source for the minhag of Chasidim to have HaKafos on Shmini Atzeres night?
On Fri, Oct 20, 2006 at 11:56:28AM +1000, SBA wrote:
: To have even a hava amina that the "basis" of a minhag practised by
: tzadikim and kedoshim and thousands of their followers over centuries
: is "due to a mistake in transcription" is ludicrous and mischievous.
Actually, claims like that are made all the time.
The Torah Temimah suggested that the custom of saying "migdol yeshu'os"
when bentching on Shabbos and Yom Tov is because someone mistranscribed.
That originally it was a parenthetic note saying that in Shemu'el beis
the word is "migdol". The name of the seifer was abbreviated shin beis,
and a later transcriber took "b-sh-sh'" for beShabbos.
Lema'aseh the TT was mistaken, since the Avudraham could not have known of
a Xian "Samuel II". (Did the division even exist yet?) And the Avudraham
records the two leshonos.
Another example: RYBS's "explanation" (offered as a "the best I could come
up with") for why most chassidim do not sit in the Sukkah on SA. Chassidim
were nohagim to go to their rebbe for SA-ST. Since the crowd was too
large for a sukkah, they had the din of a chasan and his shushvinin,
and were peturim from the sukkah. But the chassidim all remembered that
by the rebbe, they didn't sit in the sukkah on SA, and so, they didn't
use the sukkah on SA even when home.
Minhagim are be'etzem something the people did first which the rabbanim
and intelligensia justified after the fact.
Tir'u beTov!
-mi
--
Micha Berger Feeling grateful to or appreciative of someone
micha@xxxxxxxxxxx or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507 your life. - Christiane Northrup, M.D.
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Re: What is the source for the minhag of Chasidim to have HaKafos on Shmini Atzeres night?
At 01:13 AM 10/22/2006, Chaim G Steinmetz wrote:
From 266 he quotes Shaar
Hakavonos (SH) of R' Chaim Vital (RCV), that the
minhog was to go around 7 times, and that this took place ST after
Shacharis, Mincha and Motzei ST. Then he quotes R' Yaakov Tzemch (RYT)
in
Nogid Umtzaveh, this minhog in the name of Ari, but with the important
difference, that RYT brings it as if hakofos took place the NIGHT of ST
and the morning. The same in Chemdas Hayomim (CH), where after he brings
similar to what RYT writes, he complains about those that don't do
hakofos the night of ST.
Yaari assumes that the
discrepancy between the Shaar Hakavonos and RYT and
CH, is explained by the fact that RYT and CH used corrupted
manuscripts,
while the "proper version" of the Shaar Hakavonos was only
printed much (almost 150) later, in 1852.
He then goes on the bring the
Shelah, who apparently does not mention
hakofos at all, and several Sefardim from a hundred years later,
that do mention it concerning the night of ST. Ad kan
devorov.
The ARI did nothing on Simchas Torah when he was in Sefas, because there
is no Simchas Torah (second day of Shmini Atzeres, eighth day of Yom Tov
in Chutz L'aretz) in EY. The dancing he did was on Isru Chag, not on
Shmini Atzeres. This is the whole point of the "mistake" in the
text which you have chosen to dismiss.
I believe that the reason why the ARI did not dance on SA in EY is
because SA is, of course, D'Oraisa in EY. The heter of dancing on ST in
Chutz L'Aretz seems to me to come from the fact that ST is D'Rabbonon.
For those who hold that one may not dance on Shabbos and Yom Tov, dancing
on SA in EY should be problematic, to put it mildly. Dancing on ST in
Chutz L'Aretz seems to me to have been permitted for Kovod Hatorah and
because ST is D'Rabbonon.
Yitzchok Levine
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