Re: Digest Number 24

My reply will be brief, because of the challenges I currently experience. 
Here some thoughts:
Be the example of what you desire people to follow. If you live it in a way 
that is convincing. You cannot force anyone to do what they don't want to do. 
This would be the best way for your to be crucified.

Then another thought:
Is killing bad? I would say yes, if it is for pleasure and not if it is to 
defend my life.
Is stealing bad? I would say yes, if it is to deplete someone else, but no if I 
need it to survive.
Things are neither good nor bad. They just are. It is what we do with them that 
makes things good or bad...

And I believe that the only to stop the way society is currently going, is by 
creating a world governement (based on what I read in Planethood), where just 
like here in the US, you don't have wars between states anymore, but laws that 
regulate everything. Which is a a more peaceful way in my opinion. 
When we have that settled, and people are all acting towards someone who would 
violate the law (the law is for everyone the same!) then we would soon be able 
to leave without armies and war, and without civilians being violated or killed 
and we could live in peace again.

That's that for today.

Sandrine

---
Experience a miraculous and prosperous day!

"Your environment is the physical picture of your thoughts, emotions and 
beliefs made visible."
Seth


--------- Original Message ---------

DATE: 25 May 2003 11:44:39 -000
From: OurCultureOurCapitol@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: OurCultureOurCapitol@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: 

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>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>There is 1 message in this issue.
>
>Topics in this digest:
>
>      1. Was: [toeslist] Sen Byrd: The truth will emerge. ... house of cards 
> will fall (fwd) Now: Slavery.
>           From: Colin Leath <cleath@xxxxxxx>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 1
>   Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 00:07:02 -0400 (EDT)
>   From: Colin Leath <cleath@xxxxxxx>
>Subject: Was: [toeslist] Sen Byrd: The truth will emerge. ... house of cards 
>will fall (fwd) Now: Slavery.
>
>This email is started out being to
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ourcultureourcapitol/
>then grew to be relevant to
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/derrickjensen_discussion/
>and
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sfbaintegralsalon/
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/londonintegralcircle/
>and http://yoism.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion
>and, why not: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toeslist/
>
>(Wilber specific: the most relevant questions / thoughts are
>after the line of WWWWWWs)
>
>
>I've stayed up too late, and it is not well written, but I
>do think these things and am curious if these thoughts cause
>others to react beyond hitting [delete].
>
>I could not send this, and be silent. I would be better off
>then(?). But I've chosen, for the time being, to live in a
>way in which I have access to a lot of information, and I
>react to what I read. Maybe I should change how I live.
>
>--------------------------------------
>
>Don't let these political-oriented emails distract you from
>your more important work/play--
>
>
>I send them on because perhaps things like the blatant
>(mindless?) evil of the Bush administration are important in
>forming "our culture," as it would appear the Vietnam War &
>CIA ( http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/ST.html ) were
>as well.
>
>As George pointed out on the nyc-ish list- we do have
>representatives of our culture poised to save us, perhaps.
>
>http://www.kucinich.us/
>
>The following speech by Byrd (D-WV) strikes me as optimistic
>(I've been reading Derrick Jensen, and riding a bicycle in
>the suburbs of northern virginia).
>
>When all the amerikkkan flags are taken down and replaced
>with earth flags, and all the g-d bless #$! / flag flower
>arrangements are dug up from in front of city halls, then
>_maybe_ I could be as optimistic as Byrd.
>
>Sandrine pointed me to something forward-looking a while
>ago:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0915972212/
>(_planethood_)
>and:
>http://www.worldgovinst.org/
>
>
>
>To some extent, all this is a distraction from the important
>things?
>
>
>Or is an awareness of this an important part of being a
>"planetary villager"?
>
>
>Or of developing an integral perspective on the events?
>( http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/misc/iraq.cfm -
>actually, I don't think Ken is integral enough. )
>
>
>Quite possibly, (following Derrick Jensen) the Majority in
>the US tacitly favor US invasions and mass murder for the
>purpose of securing oil fields / supporting a certain way of
>life a bit longer (what if they had said from the get-go,
>"We're going in because we've run out of oil."?).
>
>( The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior--
>if correct, what does that suggest? )
>
>Quite possibly, we are entering the time where it is an
>endgame (whether manufactured or avoidable), and where the
>people of the US say, "to hell with the rest of the world-
>the game is over- we need food, water, energy, and slaves to
>continue to survive. We can no longer afford to work
>together with the other people on this planet, it is them or
>us."
>
>
>
>Is it a simple issue of manipulation of public opinion?
>
>Is, in fact, public opinion not being manipulated, but
>simply ignored? (
>http://michaelmoore.com/words/message/ )
>
>
>Derrick Jensen points out that throughout history people
>working for institutions of all kinds have lied and betrayed
>to serve what they believed to be their interest.
>
>
>The average American, in order to live how she lives, has
>had to learn how to not see, how to lie to herself, how to
>kill and enslave at a distance, while ignoring any
>suggestion that her way of life is not upstanding-- why
>should we expect that to change?
>
>
>I think most of us will agree we cannot assume that humans
>are incapable of acting in the interest of humanity-- but
>are we (have we been) living in a pre-war Germany analog?
>
>If so, what should we do?
>
>Is it possible that all those supporting the US
>military-industrial complex would ever prefer to starve
>rather than support wrong?
>
>Even if one is not paying taxes, is one still supporting the
>country by living in it? Or is one really in a better
>position to make a difference here than if one left
>(Following A. Ray
>http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0518-01.htm )?
>
>How does one decide whether to stay in Nazi Germany or
>evacuate?
>
>
>I've thought, and seen mentioned elsewhere, that if only,
>collectively, the people refused to get on those trains (to
>concentration camps--though they did not know that.),
>forcing the Soldiers to kill them right there...
>
>
>Someone on another list said, "simple living is the best
>way..."
>
>But when even the reporters of this tragedy (e.g. Quinn, A.
>Ray, D. Jensen) further it by use of car, airplane, and so
>on...  They are using these tools for what they believe to
>be a good. They are optimistic that by staying in the
>system, they can have some effect. Does T. Kaczynski have
>the moral high ground? Only the people who make and spend no
>money (in the form of world currencies) are the equivalent
>of people who refuse to board trains to concentration camps?
>
>Do we need Jesus-diet type extremism? (
>http://www.rawhealth.net/jesusdiet.htm )
>
>WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
>
>Some people are fond of saying "one cannot destroy the
>master's house with the master's tools." (Starhawk ?)
>
>I think that is wrong. One destroys the master with the
>master's tools, and some new tools. Or, one makes new tools
>that subsume the former master (this following Wilber's
>Integral view).
>
>
>How can we make a system where it is not in the interest of
>people in power to have access to cheap labor (slaves),
>such that new systems can be developed where the
>ecosystemic and human costs of all activities are
>immediately apparent? Price is not working. (robots? AI?
>http://www.kurzweilai.net/ )
>
>Is the answer that we are already in such a system, it is
>only a problem of getting more people to realize it ( this
>plays into Wilber. ) ?
>
>Then what do we do about powerful people who do not realize
>slavery is not in their interest?
>
>We create a culture of war-tax resisters, who do not drive
>or fly, or seek to benefit from the slave system, except for
>the cause of bringing about the transition to a system where
>more realize slavery is not in their interest.
>
>In that system:
>
>  (1) human population decreases.
>
>  (2) what is necessary for life comes from the local area.
>(move, if necessary - following the jesus diet)
>
>
>Unlike the jesus diet, we cannot be "fools for christ,"
>people must see that our way is in fact more in their
>interest, not foolish at all.
>
>
>What uses of technology are in fact in our interest? It does
>seem that some allowance for access to information and
>communication will be necessary for an "integral" culture
>(or at the least, for its emergence).
>
>If "future primitive" is not in our interest, how can the
>resources to maintain desired communication and information
>be procured without slavery????????
>
>
>I'm not sure I see an answer to that. Which means I'd better
>head to the forest and give up what I cannot make myself? Or
>just enjoy these dying days as best I can? (both?)
>
>
>-------------------
>
>I hope to send a more constructive email in a week or two,
>based on some exciting things I've learned regarding
>ecovillages and intentional communities.
>
>
>
>Colin
>http://j9k.org
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 21:09:03 -0400
>From: Robert Pollard <ecology2001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Reply-To: toeslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: Toes List <toeslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: [toeslist] Sen Byrd: The truth will emerge. ... house of cards
>    will fall
>
>Senator Byrd blasts Bush's 'reckless use of power,"
>international law violation and false alarm on Iraq;
>says war has encouraged terrorism and arms race
>
>Senator Robert C. Byrd (D-WV) delivered the following remarks
>in the U.S. Senate on May 21, 2003.
>
>TRUTH has a way of asserting itself despite all attempts to
>obscure it. Distortion only serves to derail it for a time.
>
>No matter to what lengths we humans may go to obfuscate facts or
>delude our fellows, truth has a way of squeezing out through the
>cracks, eventually. But the danger is that at some point it may
>no longer matter. The danger is that damage is done before the
>truth is widely realized. The reality is that, sometimes, it is
>easier to ignore uncomfortable facts and go along with whatever
>distortion is currently in vogue. We see a lot of this today in
>politics. I see a lot of it -- more than I would ever have
>believed -- right on this Senate floor.
>
>Regarding the situation in Iraq, it appears to this senator that
>the American people may have been lured into accepting the
>unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation, in violation of
>long-standing international law, under false premises.
>
>There is ample evidence that the horrific events of September 11
>have been carefully manipulated to switch public focus from Osama
>Bin Laden and Al Queda, who masterminded the September 11th
>attacks, to Saddam Hussein, who did not. The run-up to our
>invasion of Iraq featured the president and members of his
>cabinet invoking every frightening image they could conjure, from
>mushroom clouds to buried caches of germ warfare to drones poised
>to deliver germ laden death in our major cities. We were treated
>to a heavy dose of overstatement concerning Saddam Hussein and
>his direct threat to our freedoms. The tactic was guaranteed to
>provoke a sure reaction from a nation still suffering from a
>combination of post traumatic stress and justifiable anger after
>the attacks of 911. It was the exploitation of fear. It was a
>placebo for the anger.
>
>Since the war's end, every subsequent revelation which has seemed
>to refute the previous dire claims of the Bush Administration has
>been brushed aside. Instead of addressing the contradictory
>evidence, the White House deftly changes the subject. No weapons
>of mass destruction have yet turned up, but we are told that they
>will in time. Perhaps they yet will. But, our costly and
>destructive bunker-busting attack on Iraq seems to have proven,
>in the main, precisely the opposite of what we were told was the
>urgent reason to go in. It seems also to have, for the present,
>verified the assertions of Hans Blix and the inspection team he
>led, which President Bush and company so derided. As Blix always
>said, a lot of time will be needed to find such weapons, if they
>do indeed exist. Meanwhile Bin Laden is still on the loose and
>Saddam Hussein has come up missing.
>
>The Administration assured the U.S. public and the world, over
>and over again, that an attack was necessary to protect our
>people and the world from terrorism. It assiduously worked to
>alarm the public and blur the faces of Saddam Hussein and Osama
>Bin Laden until they virtually became one.
>
>What has become painfully clear in the aftermath of war is that
>Iraq was no immediate threat to the U.S. Ravaged by years of
>sanctions, Iraq did not even lift an airplane against us. Iraq's
>threatening death-dealing fleet of unmanned drones about which we
>heard so much morphed into one prototype made of plywood and
>string. Their missiles proved to be outdated and of limited
>range. Their army was quickly overwhelmed by our technology and
>our well trained troops.
>
>Presently our loyal military personnel continue their mission of
>diligently searching for WMD. They have so far turned up only
>fertilizer, vacuum cleaners, conventional weapons, and the
>occasional buried swimming pool. They are misused on such a
>mission and they continue to be at grave risk. But, the Bush
>team's extensive hype of WMD in Iraq as justification for a
>preemptive invasion has become more than embarrassing. It has
>raised serious questions about prevarication and the reckless use
>of power. Were our troops needlessly put at risk? Were countless
>Iraqi civilians killed and maimed when war was not really
>necessary? Was the American public deliberately misled? Was the
>world?
>
>What makes me cringe even more is the continued claim that we are
>"liberators." The facts don't seem to support the label we have
>so euphemistically attached to ourselves. True, we have unseated
>a brutal, despicable despot, but "liberation" implies the follow
>up of freedom, self-determination and a better life for the
>common people. In fact, if the situation in Iraq is the result of
>"liberation," we may have set the cause of freedom back 200
>years.
>
>Despite our high-blown claims of a better life for the Iraqi
>people, water is scarce, and often foul; electricity is a
>sometime thing; food is in short supply; hospitals are stacked
>with the wounded and maimed; historic treasures of the region and
>of the Iraqi people have been looted; and nuclear material may
>have been disseminated to heaven knows where, while U.S. troops,
>on orders, looked on and guarded the oil supply.
>
>Meanwhile, lucrative contracts to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure
>and refurbish its oil industry are awarded to administration
>cronies, without benefit of competitive bidding, and the U.S.
>steadfastly resists offers of U.N. assistance to participate. Is
>there any wonder that the real motives of the U.S. government are
>the subject of worldwide speculation and mistrust?
>
>And in what may be the most damaging development, the U.S.
>appears to be pushing off Iraq's clamor for self-government. Jay
>Garner has been summarily replaced, and it is becoming all too
>clear that the smiling face of the U.S. as liberator is quickly
>assuming the scowl of an occupier. The image of the boot on the
>throat has replaced the beckoning hand of freedom. Chaos and
>rioting only exacerbate that image, as U.S. soldiers try to
>sustain order in a land ravaged by poverty and disease. ?Regime
>change? in Iraq has so far meant anarchy, curbed only by an
>occupying military force and a U.S. administrative presence that
>is evasive about if and when it intends to depart.
>
>Democracy and freedom cannot be force-fed at the point of an
>occupier's gun. To think otherwise is folly. One has to stop and
>ponder. How could we have been so impossibly naive? How could we
>expect to easily plant a clone of U.S. culture, values, and
>government in a country so riven with religious, territorial, and
>tribal rivalries, so suspicious of U.S. motives, and so at odds
>with the galloping materialism which drives the western-style
>economies? As so many warned this administration before it
>launched its misguided war on Iraq, there is evidence that our
>crackdown in Iraq is likely to convince 1,000 new Bin Ladens to
>plan other horrors of the type we have seen in the past several
>days. Instead of damaging the terrorists, we have given them new
>fuel for their fury. We did not complete our mission in
>Afghanistan because we were so eager to attack Iraq. Now it
>appears that Al Queda is back with a vengeance. We have returned
>to orange alert in the U.S., and we may well have destabilized
>the Mideast region, a region we have never fully understood. We
>have alienated friends around the globe with our dissembling and
>our haughty insistence on punishing former friends who may not
>see things quite our way. The path of diplomacy and reason have
>gone out the window to be replaced by force, unilateralism, and
>punishment for transgressions. I read most recently with
>amazement our harsh castigation of Turkey, our longtime friend
>and strategic ally. It is astonishing that our government is
>berating the new Turkish government for conducting its affairs in
>accordance with its own constitution and its democratic
>institutions.
>
>Indeed, we may have sparked a new international arms race as
>countries move ahead to develop WMD as a last ditch attempt to
>ward off a possible preemptive strike from a newly belligerent
>U.S. which claims the right to hit where it wants. In fact, there
>is little to constrain this president. This Congress, in what
>will go down in history as its most unfortunate act, gave away
>its power to declare war for the foreseeable future and empowered
>this President to wage war at will.
>
>As if that were not bad enough, members of Congress are reluctant
>to ask questions which are begging to be asked. How long will we
>occupy Iraq? We have already heard disputes on the numbers of
>troops which will be needed to retain order. What is the truth?
>How costly will the occupation and rebuilding be? No one has
>given a straight answer. How will we afford this long-term
>massive commitment, fight terrorism at home, address a serious
>crisis in domestic health care, afford behemoth military spending
>and give away billions in tax cuts amidst a deficit which has
>climbed to over $340 billion for this year alone? If the
>President's tax cut passes it will be $400 billion. We cower in
>the shadows while false statements proliferate. We accept soft
>answers and shaky explanations because to demand the truth is
>hard, or unpopular, or may be politically costly.
>
>But, I contend that, through it all, the people know. The
>American people unfortunately are used to political shading,
>spin, and the usual chicanery they hear from public officials.
>They patiently tolerate it up to a point. But there is a line. It
>may seem to be drawn in invisible ink for a time, but eventually
>it will appear in dark colors, tinged with anger. When it comes
>to shedding American blood -- when it comes to wreaking havoc on
>civilians, on innocent men, women, and children, callous
>dissembling is not acceptable. Nothing is worth that kind of lie
>-- not oil, not revenge, not reelection, not somebody's grand
>pipe dream of a democratic domino theory.
>
>And mark my words, the calculated intimidation which we see so
>often of late by the "powers that be" will only keep the loyal
>opposition quiet for just so long. Because eventually, like it
>always does, the truth will emerge. And when it does, this house
>of cards, built of deceit, will fall.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
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>



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