Re: [Discussion] Intro and comments

Issac,
thanks for the yo book-

(I had been looking for it on the web but gave up)

On Mon, 5 May 2003, Isaac Kriegman wrote:

> Yo may be interested in reading a very early draft of The Book of Yo
> (attached), a book we hope will ultimately capture the vision and
> philosophy of Yo, and is the main opensource collaboration...I'd be
> interested in hearing your thoughts about the truth and meaning sections.
>

At the beginning of my paper (
http://experienceart.org/cleath/docs/meaning.htm ),
I make the point that language can be very misleading-
simply because a concept exists in language does not mean it
exists or is even useful in real life (say, for example,
"true love").

(Zerzan goes even further, saying that Language is a symptom
of our disconnection from the natural world.)

I think I also make the point that language and thought are
tools to be used to achieve a desired quality of experience
(if you simplify, you might say "happiness", but I prefer
not to simplify in this case (the cause of the hesitance
Orion noted)).

To that end, I have not found myself using the concept of
"Truth" much at all.

Here are some instances where I was considering it:
http://experienceart.org/cleath/docs/being_hs/writings/persuas.htm
"On persuasion and true happiness"
(part of: http://experienceart.org/cleath/docs/being_hs)

By "true" I mean something that is consistent over time and
differences in frame of reference. If there is something
that we can experience all our lives as good, and different
frames of reference, that is, the other people we know of,
experience the same thing as good, there is a good chance it
is something truly good.


I think, though, that is just an example of an attempt to
give a nearly useless word some relevance.

I sort of remember when writing the summary for my meaning
in life paper (
http://experienceart.org/cleath/docs/meaning.htm#_Ref424532912
), of originally including something about "truth", but then
leaving it out.


Regarding meaning:
you can see also that I sort of do away with that word because it is imprecise.
in the Book of Yo yo mention "what is important" to you-
again this is also unclear.

And the concept I use in my day-to-day life that actually helps me is: "what do 
I have to look forward to?"

That is the behavioral experience-based root for the word meaning, and 
"important to you"

(at least that's what I found)

The true test of all this is: do these realizations stick with you? Do they 
seem as relevant to you now as they did when you wrote them? (Did they seem 
relevant then?)

With my meaning in life paper, I've been able to say "yes!" for a while now.



But the problem facing you (and I, If I choose it) is what is needed to build a 
growing, evangelical religion?

A religion That achieves the goal of increasing the amount of time people enjoy 
being alive and spreads an ethos something like this:

"A culture where those whose actions benefit themselves at the expense of the 
group are extinguished, banished from participation in the group. (p 364 
_alotw_). --where the group is all living and non-living non-human made 
things-- And where those whose actions benefit the entire group are respected 
the most.


I think only two things are necessary:
(1) The technology / cult needs to assist those who participate in it in 
becoming vibrantly and joyously healthy human beings.

(2) Somehow, those joyously healthy human beings need to want to tell others 
about what they've found-- with missionary zeal (but in a way that does not 
lead to bumper stickers like "YO! Save me from your followers" -- actually, 
maybe those will be the sign of our arrival :) ).


I don't think you need the concept of "Truth" for that to happen.

What I imagine happening is... Much of what Orion was describing. It sounds 
like you've been very successful in spite of still seeking a campaign.

What I imagine happening is groups like yours start to reclaim people and land 
from (to use ishmael-speak) the taker society.

In my idea for a cult ( 
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.our-culture-capitol/24 ), the 
people in it are almost entirely focused on that agenda.

because they are successful, they are able to create a biosphere/ worship space 
/ monastary in the heart of NYC and to have missionaries on every street corner 
that passerby actually pay attention to!




hmm.


What is actually happening is that many of us are going off to live on 
ecovillages.
Many of us get wrapped up in starting new families, instead of focusing on the 
family that we already have (imperfect though it may be).

The big carrot in this is a more loving way to live.

If I walked up to you and said, If you come with me, you can stay with us- eat 
from our fruit trees, learn how to take care of yourself like we care for 
ourselves, and you can have time to help the rest of the people you see do the 
same-

I think there's a good chance you'd listen.


As to how we get from here to there, the steps Orion mentioned seem like good 
ones.

We need resources- fruit trees, etc, and in the colder climates, central 
heating :) ,
We need a way to go from the (well, at this point my proposed) guiding ethos:

where those whose actions benefit themselves at the expense of the group are 
extinguished, banished from participation in the group. (p 364 _alotw_). 
--where the group is all living and non-living non-human made things-- And 
where those whose actions benefit the entire group are respected the most.

to directions on political (and personal) issues that many can rally around and 
support.

We all also need to realize the magnitude of the change required:
While I do not use a car- I still buy fruit that has been driven and grown with 
pesticides. I use a computer (built with substances mined from the earth, etc. 
running on nuclear power)--

Basically, at this point, if you are spending money, you are contributing to 
environmental destruction or oppression somewhere.

We need to work on a road map (er, foot path) of how to get from here to a 
world where we can exist without as Tom Elpel says, "raping the earth"

Even most ecovillages are way far away from that ideal- (but they are closer-- 
though to the extent their members are encouraging others to jet around/drive 
to visit them, and jetting around themselves- maybe not-- the simple rule: the 
more money you spend in life, the more environmental harm you cause, applies 
even to ecovillagers).



so, I've been babbling. And I'm about to post my notes from reading the book of 
yo.

I really don't expect people to read all this-
but consider it an expression of my gladness and appreciation of having your 
actions to inspire and challenge my own.


In my history, while I've thought of doing what you've done, I could never 
(yet) develop a way of meeting that would motivate me enough to engage with 
others in the way necessary to get something like this to happen. But different 
things for different people. You will notice my taking issue with your emphasis 
on family and community: throughout history there are people who have preferred 
the solitary path. I do relish being a part of a community that is working on 
(as opposed to ignoring) the questions we are working on- but as to whether 
that means living on an ecovillage and sharing meals, and so on, I am not sure. 
I also take issue with your focus on sex and relationships for the same reason-
I have fairly well explored these avenues for experience in the past, and no 
doubt will continue to explore them when I have the opportunity, but I also 
have in mind the many people who have carefully chosen to pursue a life without 
those aspects (in the the sense you are thinking).

I do believe my cult would say far less than you do in your book- for if there 
are universals, there are not as many as you imagine (or they don't need as 
many words to lay them out).

It really matters little what you say and think: it matters hugely what we do 
(hmm, I've been doing quite a lot of saying...), and how we feel, and whether 
others are impressed and provoked to curiosity by their feeling of our presence.

I am _excited_ to see where this might go, in me and with you. I am hoping to 
progress on some carfree projects (carfreeuniverse.org, carfreecity.us), but 
then?

(unfortunately a winter in Boston is not my idea of that certain quality of 
experience :) )

Colin
http://j9k.org



Here are my notes on reading the book of yo:
(If I come to care enough- I'll make a point of explaining them more-
but realize the basic value of opensource: I take your code and modify it for 
my own purposes-- last night I began that process. I would be honored if my 
contributions to the code base are eventually accepted, but I'm not holding my 
breath, and there are enough differences in our orientations that I am not 
certain that my perspectives will be seen as complementary to yours.)

Here is one note though:
That has been ringing in me since I read it:
It has been said that the Mbuti of southern Africa believe that "by a correct 
fulfillment of the present, the past and the future will take care of 
themselves."

That was found in Derrick Jensen's work.
It is, I think, the essence of my practice-- experienceart. It is the best 
argument, of why I wish to never use a car or see them- or to fly in an airline.

These, and others, many others, are things I can _feel_ to be wrong in the 
present, though maybe I did them once to bring closer a future I imagined to be 
desirable.

In your writing for the book of yo, I encourage you to think/feel "sacred 
text." I encourage you to think:

every phrase sends a chill a down my ...

It takes a long time and a lot of silence (or some moments of frenzied 
inspiration-- no, actually I think the silence, and listening in awe to the 
entities as the slowly form in one's mind result in the most powerful 
expression.) to create something like that- and it has that effect _every time 
you read it_

The Declaration of Interdependence _must_ be that way. (if it's not, throw it 
out until you have something that is---hmm can this be managed in a opensource 
way? --probably- just use revision control/ web cvs and make all versions 
accessible--)

one thing that will help is making everything shorter-
if you boil it all away and find nothing left- maybe you really don't have 
anything to say?

Your few main points- your maint point- should be able to be summed up in one 
phrase-
this is the phrase, the essence of yo, which, if you think of it during your 
day-to-day life, comes to you-

for me, I don't know what it is yet- maybe that group ethos?

here is some inspiration:
http://intensivejournal.org/ (if you manage to get your hands on one of his 
books you'll see he could benefit from following my suggestions as well - hmm-- 
I'm rather long-winded myself-- I wonder what you all think of this!)

http://sacredmirrors.org/
(don't work only in words! think illuminated manuscripts-- 
http://www.wizwheelz.com/triketourjournal2.htm - maybe that's not an 
illuminated manuscript- but along those lines.)





One other note that I think is hugely important which is not as prominent in yo 
as I'd like it to be:

As Zarzan suggests: Language, Ritual, Ceremony, Time, Community, Number, are 
concepts that are _Symptoms_ of our problem- our disconnection from the 
successful way that human lived for millions of years.

(I realize I am walking right into Wilber's pre/trans fallacy & idealization of 
primitive culture (or lack therof), but I'm fairly certain that Zerzan's point 
is more valid than Wilber's -- or at least Zerzan's concept, applied with 
awareness of wilber's caveat, is significantly more useful and relevant than 
Wilber's concept is without awareness of Zerzan's)



In any event, In the gathering I develop for my cult, it will include 
interaction with nature on the wavelength of _A language older than words_
The gatherings may involve practicing of primitive skills, and some sort of 
communion with plants and animals-

I can think of no better message to express our ethos than to do like the 
witches do and to meet outdoors (in a sacred circle), or if in NYC to construct 
a biosphere2-like temple (or just use central park when its warm, or go to one 
of the greenhouses of the arboretums)

The very human-centeredness of the yo (and every other religion's) gathering 
strikes me as symptomatic of our problem-

as long as you're using the concept of community, and as long as your version 
of that concept includes primarily people, to the exclusion (intentional or 
not, determined by percentages of time spent devoting one's attention to that 
realm) of animals, plants, and non-living, non-human-made things, that is 
symptomatic of our problem.

As long as you emphasize that humans are a social animal, and as long as your 
concept of social interaction consists primarily of interaction with other 
humans to the exclusion of interaction with flora, fauna, mountains, and 
oceans, that is indicative of our problem.


Believe me (at least about me), I have fully (er, fairly thoroughly) explored 
the extent of my emptiness and alienation with respect to people, and I know 
that the healthiest, most loving human relationships and human community cannot 
exist without a mending, or, in actuality, a reconstruction--on the scale of 
birthing a dinosaur from a dna fragment--of a quality relationship between my 
existence and the existences (or spirits) of the plants, animals, and 
non-respirating, non-human-made things.

Don't look to people- (except to learn from their example)
I think derrick jensen is right on- (_a language older than words_)
I think raphael spindell of the ecovillage belize project
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EcoVillage-Belize/
is on to something (though I don't think I'll be following him).


I think that's enough for now!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

1142
reading the book of yoan.
notes:
g-d not god-

children vs adults

 a world in which children are shown how to discover
themselves, not according to some s

1147 intro:
a bit / windy-

where every phrase send chills down your- & reader's -

1150
 hypochondriac who is always sure
yo is suffering


perhaps a pronoun preface?

1153

"it is inevitable that horror that staggers the human imagination (that thinks 
it has already been staggered to the nth degree by past horrors) will result 
from the actions of humanity gone insane.


There is no need to talk about future doom.
We are already living amidst doom-
[derrick jensen, boiling frog, other indicators- john zerzan-- we do not have 
an outside perspective on our environment.

For example- once you are aware, you can appreciate that to live in an 
environment built around car use- or to live in an environment not built for 
cars, but where cars are now allowed (e.g. old-town Prague) is to live in a 
wasteland.
]


1158
joanna mc
used ee as her pronoun.

1159

don't blame religion on overpopulation:
I recommend some background:

(ladakh, context)

[
A powerful illustration of how communities stop controlling
their populations when resources can be bought with money:

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC31/NorbergH.htm
found from reading: http://www.eco-action.org/dt/ladakh.html


a whole issue on population.
http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC31/TOC31.htm
]


1201
your definitions of poverty are _very_ western & capitalist-centric-

you should say:
control more capital-

_Never_ conflate access to monetary instruments with wealth.

that is sick.

read zerzan: future primitive.

1205
this is very leftist?

1207
you don't need to talk about "millions who will die" talk about those who have 
and are dying-
again- read derrick jensen

[Note, I think the process that Derrick Jensen has made a business of: seeking 
out and focusing attention on atrocities toward the group (of all things) 
should be incorporated into the religion on the level of gatherings (balanced 
with a focus on successes) and on the level of some research 
institute/function.]

provide examples of state violence against its citizens (e.g. judy bari)

1209
you are aware of the "left behind" series - best seller to the fundamentalist 
christians?

1212
this whole paragraph is problematic:

The response to all this, in the year 2001, was to place a republican in the
presidency of the United States. Supported by people consumed with bizarre
greed^×as if the wealthy in the US were being taken advantage of (!)^×he 
promised
and kept his promise to further skew the distribution of resources by giving a
massive tax cut to the richest of the rich. His first act was to cut off aid to
countries trying to respond to overpopulation by providing their women with
choices regarding family planning and birth control. Instead of a humanitarian
attempt to help resolve the rapidly deteriorating situation, he responded to the
increasing instability in the world by promising to increase spending on 
military
might that will be useless for controlling desperate, starving billions with
access to new information and technology with which to make cheap, powerful
weapons of mass destruction. With the new president, we have every reason to
expect to see the woefully inadequate environmental protections eroded so that
corporations can more efficiently strip-mine our world of any resources left.

Are you suggesting that to have a democrat in the presidency would have been 
preferable?

The genius of Bush is that he's extreme enough that many of us who were sitting 
on our asses slowly cooking have woken up and are now trying to hop out of the 
pot or to do something to turn down the flame.

What you're getting at : the psychosis of a belief system which focuses on life 
after death, rather than life on earth, is a huge and vital issue.

It is to some extent a mistake to combine that focus with politics.
The message is essentially quinn's in _Story of B_ and _Providence_

But you need to focus at the base of the culture not aspects within the 
culture. This is why I think the angle Jensen and Zerzan take is more effective 
than the angle you and Quinn appear to be taking.

1219
don't tell us we are delusional,
show us:
You'll get a response of withdrawal perhaps, but you can craft it to show a 
path out.

Combine Derrick Jensen with Starhawk-- Read _truth or dare_ up to page 80 or so.

1223
onto reclaiming g-d
spelling out g-d galls me.

1226
guys-
this needs work-
read quinn (everything), zerzan, and lots more on anarcho-primitivism-

also Starhawk (I've only read _truth or dare_)

Incorporate their histories and you'll be doing much better.

Learn about animism.

read jensen.

in addition, in placing your movement in the context of the 
ishmael/jensen/zerzan/starhawk thought-space, you will tap into a much larger 
base.
huge numbers of people (relatively) already accept their world view.

and to a great extent it is not hugely different from the worldview of all 
planetary villagers and fighting indigenous peoples.


1234
I think where your track differs from the others (animists) is that you believe 
empiricism is the solution-
many of these others believe empiricism is as much a problem as 'daddy-gods'

for them: the problem is enshrining dominance.

the first 80 pages of _truth or dare_ bring this home-

there may be better texts-


1238
be _very_ careful about your glorification of the scientific process.
(what happens in science)

1242
realize how important language is-

I don't think you can use g-d even though you define it as manifest in all 
things-

the Quakers are an example-
they use the word 'light'

you are dealing with a term that has been strongly associated with dominance 
for a long time-

I suggest you banish it and find another means of speaking of the 
sacred/spiritual/holy

"gods" is workable-

a while ago-
I would say "g-d is what happens"

Maybe if you raise your kids in this you can get a different association with 
the word and use of g-d

but for most people alive now, the reframing you are attempting is impossible


the meaning of the word is like the effect of smelling incense today that has 
been present at important events since the beginning of your life.

1251
the notion of "time" is questionable.

1253
yech!

1257
consider: "one cannot use the tools of domination to take down those who 
dominate"

this is starhawk's basic message-

(I believe)

1258
While it might seem ironic or hypocritical for a Yoan to claim access to The
Truth, there is no contradiction in our standing strong and screaming for all to
hear, "We have the way! Their way is deluded and destructive. Our way is better.
Follow us to a better world!" We need to stand just as strong as they stand or
they'll trample all over us. We need to scream just as loud as they scream or
we'll never be heard.

this was my thinking in:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.our-culture-capitol/22

And in other things...

1302
not liking your empiricism and emphasis on an immutable (I know that's not what 
you mean, but it is what is suggested) "reality"

starhawk's treatment is much better- in truth or dare around p. 80 on the 
difference between rebellion and resistance.

1308
Nobody can determine for me what is important to me. That is something that 
only I can determine. We reject the idea that another entity (be it another 
person, God, or something else entirely) can somehow determine what is 
meaningful for each of us as individuals.

it is so incredibly eerie to me how so often what I imagine pops into my 
existence so readily!
again see
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.our-culture-capitol/22

Now I just need a car-free united states :)

1310
decent medical care

interestingly all of these things can mean very different things to different 
people.
that above is an oxymoron to some.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0304.longman.html

many people do not choose "sex" and "family" in the traditional american sense- 
(as in children and sex with a partner)

1314
this sounds unpleasant:
I want to understand as much as a I can about the universe and existence. The
    exploration of reality is a sacred activity. I yearn to understand more 
about
    myself, my purpose in this world, how it all came to be, what will bring me
    the greatest fulfillment, who I am, and what is in store for me. Genuine and
    sincere exploration underlies all my efforts of creative beauty. I value 
real
    understanding, hoping always to be moving closer to Truth.

(very striving, very dominating & again the language issue "truth")

understanding vs appreciation

1316
the earth charter is also interesting:
 http://earthscouts.org/

1318
this is not a problem: it is the beauty of consensus:
We
are working to develop some sort of modified consensus that will allow the
community to take action, while preserving the valuable disagreements that are
unavoidable in a community which recognizes the worth of individual experience. 
If
we do not create such a process then after our group grows past a trivial size, 
we
will never be able to act.

and the reason for the existence of special-interest groups.

1319
their constraint is necessary for the
    maintenance and operation of an effective government that can secure these
    Rights.

If your government is constraining those rights...

1-5 sounds like a mess to me-
maybe I'll think of how my cult would operate.

#8:
don't ignore hermits, monks, nuns, autistics.

Remember zerzan: "community" is a symptom

1324
 sick coalitions of people

 is problematic.

1325
OH MY G-D! :)
on

the 28th of april, I wrote the following:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.our-culture-capitol/24
    (
    first though- if you have not read _A language Older than
    words_ and at least some Zerzan,

    http://www.eco-action.org/dt/futureprim.html
    http://sacredlands.org/enemyofthestate_zerzan.htm

    plan to do so.

    I believe that Jensen may be the Thomas Paine for our
    revolution-- I am now waiting for
    "the declaration of interdependence"
    )



1328
however- I don't think this is it:
"to assume among the powers of the earth the equal and independent station

1331
there you go again:
"For all of our scientific discoveries and brilliant technological advancements"

I don't think this is the place for sarcasm.

1332
and some more:
"Global Warming is a scientific certainty

you're perhaps not as up on the debate as I am?
(what's debatable is not that humans are affecting earth's climate, but that 
the way humans are affecting Temperature is a problem - and what way the 
temperature would be going/ would have gone if humans were not here. and what 
percentage of that change is due to human activity.)


1335
On the other hand, religions which have barely any message beyond
tolerance have been unable to gather the momentum needed to truly reform society
beyond tiny band-aid solutions.


1338
pragma

1339
In another two years it will probably have a different name.

nice.

1341

This challenge is the paradox of Yo, the tension between my needs and yours, 
between the need of the individual and the needs of the community. We must 
empower each of us in the pursuit of our own dreams, and these dreams must 
overlap enough to give back to the community so that we may continue to empower 
each other and growing number of Yoans.

-I think describing this as a paradox is a problem-
my vision of my cult was: from ( 
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.our-culture-capitol/24 )

We need to create a culture where those whose actions benefit themselves at the 
expense of the group are extinguished, banished from participation in the 
group. (p 364 _alotw_). --where the group is all living and non-living 
non-human made things-- And where those whose actions benefit the entire group 
are respected the most.

That is what _has_ to happen.

You/we cannot be wishy-washy about that.

If you combine that ethos with the tenet that: "only you can know what is best 
for yourself", I think you're o.k.


I haven't developed my thinking about my cult as much as you have about yours-- 
perhaps in time-


1348
the horrible word truth-

throw it out.

I use only "experience"

1350
yeech



[Final note- there was some writing in that last section that I found myself 
really liking, (at one point I said to myself, "who is writing this part?", but 
still, apparently there was enough that  made me "yeech" :) ]






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