osdir.com


[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: Drop 0. from the version


No one has mentioned Semantic Versioning (semver [1]) yet, so I will.
I don't know whether the Druid developers think in terms of semver,
but a lot of your audience will. In semver, the shift from 0. to 1. is
a big event, because the "only remove APIs in major releases" rule
does not apply for versions < 1.0.

It would be good if Druid had a policy for how long APIs and will be
around. It does not need to be based on semver, but if it isn't, it
should explain how it is different than semver.

It should also spell out the planned release cadence. It sounds like
you're thinking of two major versions per year, which sounds great.
But note that Guava did exactly that, and got flak from a lot of
people because features would move from supported to deprecated to
gone in just six months.

Regarding combining release 1.0 with Druid's graduation. My gut says
no. A lot of people mistakenly think that graduation is a sign of
product maturity, whereas it's actually a sign of *community*
maturity. You don't want to play into those misconceptions and make
people think that Druid is less mature than it really is. (For the
record, I think Druid's product and community are both very mature.) I
think of 1.0 and graduation as two separate opportunities to generate
some news. For 1.0 you can talk about how Druid is industry strength,
has wide adoption at large scales; for graduation you can talk about
community and what that brings to governance, and adapting to market
needs.

Also regarding that "1.0" thing. How about going straight to 14.0?

Julian

[1] https://semver.org/
On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 10:10 AM Charles Allen <crallen@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> If I'm greedily honest, I don't want to maintain that many backport
> channels. I'd rather have "If you want XYZ backport for version 14, then
> you have to take the latest minor version for 14" and have a policy to
> where someone can upgrade from 14.x --> 14.latest with (hopefully) no
> config changes.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 9:03 AM David Glasser <glasser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> > One nice advantage to moving out of 0.x is that it frees up a digit on the
> > right side to more cleanly differentiate between "minor release (a random
> > assortment of bug fixes, small features, etc)" and "patch release
> > (literally the minimum delta to give you a security fix or high impact bug
> > fix)".
> >
> > --dave
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:58 AM Gian Merlino <gian@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm not too fussy around whether we do a 1.0 or simply drop the 0. and
> > have
> > > it be a 14.0 or 15.0 or 16.0 or wherever we are at the time we do it. I
> > > also like the quarterly cadence of release-from-master we had before we
> > got
> > > blocked on the ASF transition, and would like to pick that back up again
> > > (with the next branch cut from master at the end of January, since we did
> > > the 0.13.0 branch cut in late October).
> > >
> > > Seems to me that good points of discussion are, what should we use as the
> > > rule for incrementing the major version? Do we do what we've been doing
> > > (incrementing whenever there's either an incompatible change in extension
> > > APIs, or in query APIs, or when necessary to preserve the ability to
> > always
> > > be able to roll forward/back one major release). Or do we do something
> > else
> > > (Roman seems to be suggesting dropping extension APIs from
> > consideration).
> > >
> > > And also, what does 1.0 or 14.0 or 15.0 or what-have-you mean to us? Is
> > it
> > > something that should be tied to ASF graduation? Completeness of vision?
> > > Stability of APIs or operational characteristics? Something else? You are
> > > right that it is sort of a marketing/mentality thing, so it's an
> > > opportunity for us to declare that we feel Druid has reached some
> > > milestone. My feeling at this time is probably ASF graduation or
> > > completeness of vision (see my earlier mail for thoughts there) are the
> > > ones that make most sense to me.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 10:41 AM Charles Allen <crallen@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Is there any feeling in the community that the logic behind the
> > releases
> > > > needs to change?
> > > >
> > > > If so then I think we should discuss what that release cadence needs to
> > > > look like.
> > > >
> > > > If not then dropping the 0. prefix is a marketing / mental item. Kind
> > of
> > > > like the 3.x->4.x Linux kernel upgrade. If this is the case then would
> > we
> > > > even want to go with 1.x? I think Roman's proposal would work fine in
> > > this
> > > > case. Where we just call it Apache Druid 14 (or 15 or whatever it is
> > when
> > > > we get there) and just keep the same logic for when we release stuff,
> > > which
> > > > has been something like:
> > > >
> > > > For a X.Y release, going to a X.? release should be very straight
> > forward
> > > > for anyone running stock Druid.
> > > > For a X.Y release, going to a (X+1).? or from a (X+1).? back to an X.Y
> > > > release should be feasible. It might require running a tool supported
> > by
> > > > the community.
> > > > For a X.Y release, going to an (X+2).? or an (X-2).? is not supported.
> > > Some
> > > > things that will not have tools might have warning logs printed that
> > the
> > > > functionality will change (should we change these to alerts?)
> > > >
> > > > If this sounds reasonable then jumping straight to Apache Druid 14 on
> > the
> > > > first official apache release would make a lot of sense.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Charles Allen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 11:07 PM Gian Merlino <gian@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I think it's a good point. Culturally we have been willing to break
> > > > > extension APIs for relatively small benefits. But we have generally
> > > been
> > > > > unwilling to make breaking changes on the operations side quite so
> > > > > liberally. Also, most cluster operators don't have their own custom
> > > > > extensions, in my experience. So it does make sense to differentiate
> > > > them.
> > > > > I'm not sure how it makes sense to differentiate them, though. It
> > could
> > > > be
> > > > > done through the version number (only increment the major version for
> > > > > operations breaking changes) or it could be done through an
> > "upgrading"
> > > > > guide in the documentation (increment the major version for
> > operations
> > > or
> > > > > extension breaking changes, but, have a guide that tells people which
> > > > > versions have operations breaking changes to aid in upgrades).
> > > > >
> > > > > Coming back to the question in the subject of your mail: IMO, for
> > > > > "graduation" out of 0.x, we should talk as a community about what
> > that
> > > > > means to us. It is a milestone that on the one hand, doesn't mean
> > much,
> > > > but
> > > > > on the other hand, can be deeply symbolic. Some things that it has
> > > meant
> > > > to
> > > > > other projects:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Production readiness. Obviously Druid is well past this. If this
> > is
> > > > what
> > > > > dropping the 0. means, then we should do it immediately.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) Belief that the APIs have become relatively stable. Like you said,
> > > the
> > > > > extension APIs don't seem particularly close to stable, but maybe
> > > that's
> > > > > okay. However, the pace of breaking changes on the operations and
> > query
> > > > > side for non-experimental features has been relatively calm for the
> > > past
> > > > > couple of years, so if we focus on that then we can make a case here.
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) Completeness of vision. This one is the most interesting to me. I
> > > > > suspect that different people in the community have different visions
> > > for
> > > > > Druid. It is also the kind of project that may never truly be
> > complete
> > > in
> > > > > vision (in principle, the platform could become a competitive data
> > > > > warehouse, search engine, etc, …). For what it's worth, my vision of
> > > > Druid
> > > > > for the next year at least involves robust stream ingestion being a
> > > first
> > > > > class ingestion method (Kafka / Kinesis indexing service style) and
> > SQL
> > > > > being a first class query language. These are both, today, still
> > > > > experimental features. So are lookups. All of these 3 features, from
> > > > what I
> > > > > can see, are quite popular amongst Druid users despite being
> > > > experimental.
> > > > > For a 'completeness of vision' based 1.0 I would want to lift all of
> > > > those
> > > > > out of experimental status and, for SQL in particular, to have its
> > > > > functionality rounded out a bit more (to support the native query
> > > > features
> > > > > it doesn't currently support, like multi-value dimensions,
> > > datasketches,
> > > > > etc).
> > > > >
> > > > > 4) Marketing / timing. Like, doing a 1.0 around the time we graduate
> > > from
> > > > > the Incubator. Not sure how much this really matters, but projects do
> > > it
> > > > > sometimes.
> > > > >
> > > > > Another question is, how often do we intend to rev the version? At
> > the
> > > > rate
> > > > > we're going, we rev 2-3 major versions a year. Would we intend to
> > keep
> > > > that
> > > > > up, or slow it down by making more of an effort to avoid breaking
> > > > changes?
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Dec 20, 2018 at 2:17 PM Roman Leventov <
> > leventov.ru@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > It may also make sense to distinguish "operations" breaking changes
> > > > from
> > > > > > API breaking changes. Operations breaking changes establish the
> > > minimum
> > > > > > cadence of Druid cluster upgrades, that allow rolling Druid
> > versions
> > > > back
> > > > > > and forward. I. e. it's related to segment format, the format of
> > the
> > > > data
> > > > > > kept in ZooKeeper and the SQL database, or events such as stopping
> > > > > support
> > > > > > of ZooKeeper for certain things (e. g. forcing using of HTTP
> > > > > > announcements). So Druid cluster operators cannot update Druid from
> > > > > version
> > > > > > X to version Z skipping the version Y, if both Y and Z have some
> > > > > operations
> > > > > > breaking changes. (Any such changes should support rollback options
> > > at
> > > > > > least until the next version with operations breaking changes.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > API breaking changes are just changes in Druid extensions APIs.
> > Druid
> > > > > > cluster operators could skip any number of releases with such
> > > breaking
> > > > > > changes, as long as their extension's code is updated for the
> > latest
> > > > > > version of API.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 at 20:03, Roman Leventov <leventov@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > It doesn't seem to me that Druid API is going to stabilize in the
> > > > near
> > > > > > > future (if ever), because there are so many extension points and
> > > > > > something
> > > > > > > is broken in every release. On the other hand, Druid is not
> > Hadoop
> > > or
> > > > > > > Spark, which have applications API. Druid API for extensions, not
> > > > > > > applications. It is used by people who are closer to Druid
> > > > development
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > fixing their extensions is routine.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With that, I think it make sense to drop "0." from the Druid
> > > version
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > call it Druid 14, Druid 15, etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx