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Re: Snapshots only on Primary Storage feature


Perhaps instead of renaming the setting, we can note in its description the hypervisors it currently pertains to.

> On May 19, 2018, at 7:03 PM, Glen Baars <glen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> Based on the responses, I think it is a worthy feature to be retained. Maybe the following changes?
> 
> Rename the setting to something like kvmxen.snapshot.primaryonly ( I have no idea of the naming scheme that Cloudstack uses )
> Ensure the code for vmware snapshots does not get impacted by the setting
> Record in the DB that the snapshot is only on the primary storage
> When the create template or download template features are used, use the primary storage as the source.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Glen Baars
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Will Stevens <wstevens@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, 19 May 2018 12:57 PM
> To: dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Snapshots only on Primary Storage feature
> 
> I think reverting the change in 4.11.1 is probably a good idea.
> 
> *Will Stevens*
> Chief Technology Officer
> c 514.826.0190
> 
> <https://goo.gl/NYZ8KK>
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 2:52 PM ilya musayev <ilya.mailing.lists@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> 
>> Perhaps bring it back into 4.11.1?
>> 
>> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 9:28 AM Suresh Kumar Anaparti <
>> sureshkumar.anaparti@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> 
>>> Si / Will,
>>> 
>>> That is just FYI, if anyone uses VMware with that flag set to false.
>>> I'm neither against the feature nor telling to rip that out.
>>> 
>>> You are correct, the PR 2081 supports KVM and Xen as the volume
>>> snapshots are directly supported on them and backup operation is not
>>> tightly
>> coupled
>>> with the create operation.
>>> 
>>> -Suresh
>>> 
>>> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 7:38 PM, Simon Weller
>>> <sweller@xxxxxxx.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> There are plenty of features in ACS that are particular to a
>>>> certain hypervisor (or hypervisor set), including VMware specific items.
>>>> 
>>>> It was never claimed this feature worked across all hypervisors.
>>>> In addition to that, the default was to leave the existing
>>>> functionality exactly the way it was originally implemented and if
>>>> a user wished to change the functionality they could via a global config variable.
>>>> 
>>>> Your original spec for PR 2081 in confluence states that the PR
>>>> was targeted towards KVM and Xen, so I'm confused as to why VMware
>>>> is even being mentioned here.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This is a major feature regression that a number of
>> organizations/service
>>>> providers are relying on and it wasn't called out when the PR was
>>> submitted.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Will Stevens <wstevens@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 6:12 AM
>>>> To: dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: Snapshots only on Primary Storage feature
>>>> 
>>>> Just because it does not work for VMware should not a reason to
>>>> rip out
>>> the
>>>> functionality for other hypervisors where it is being used though.
>>>> 
>>>> I know we also have the requirement that snapshots are not
>> automatically
>>>> replicated to secondary storage, so this feature is useful to us.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't understand the rational for removing the feature just
>>>> because
>> it
>>>> does not work on VMware.
>>>> 
>>>> On Fri, May 18, 2018, 6:27 AM Suresh Kumar Anaparti, <
>>>> sureshkumar.anaparti@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Si,
>>>>> 
>>>>> The PR# 1697 with the global setting
>>>>> *snapshot.backup.rightafter** -
>>>>> false* doesn't
>>>>> work for VMware as create snapshot never takes a snapshot in
>>>>> Primary
>>>> pool,
>>>>> it just returns the snapshot uuid. The backup snapshot does the
>>> complete
>>>>> job - creates a VM snapshot with the uuid, extracts and exports
>>>>> the
>>>> target
>>>>> volume to secondary. On demand backup snapshot doesn't work as
>>>>> there
>> is
>>>> no
>>>>> snapshot in primary. Also, there'll be only one entry with
>>>>> Primary
>>> store
>>>>> role in snapshot_store_ref, which is the latest snapshot taken
>>>>> for
>> that
>>>>> volume.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -Suresh
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 1:03 AM, Simon Weller
>> <sweller@xxxxxxx.invalid
>>>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> The whole point of the original PR was to optionally disable
>>>>>> this functionality.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We don't expose views of the backup state to our customers (we
>>>>>> have
>>> our
>>>>>> own customer interfaces) and it's a large waste of space for
>>>>>> us to
>> be
>>>>>> backing up tons of VM images when we have a solid primary
>>>>>> storage infrastructure that already has lots of resiliency.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I guess we're going to have to revisit this again before we
>>>>>> can
>>>> consider
>>>>>> rebasing on 4.11.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>> From: Suresh Kumar Anaparti <sureshkumar.anaparti@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 2:21 PM
>>>>>> To: dev
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Snapshots only on Primary Storage feature
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Si,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No. not possible to disable the backup to secondary. It copies
>>>>>> the
>>>> volume
>>>>>> snapshot to secondary in a background thread using asyncBackup
>> param
>>>> (set
>>>>>> to true) and allows other operations during that time.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I understand that the backup was on demand when any operations
>>>>>> are performed on the snapshot. But, backup during that time
>>>>>> may take considerable time (depending on the snapshot size and
>>>>>> the network bandwidth), which can result in the job timeout
>>>>>> and the User may
>>> assume
>>>>>> that it is already Backed up based on its state, unless it is
>>>> documented.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -Suresh
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 12:23 AM, Simon Weller
>>> <sweller@xxxxxxx.invalid
>>>>> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Suresh,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> With this new merged  PR, is it possible to disable the
>>>>>>> backup to secondary completely? I can't tell from the
>>>>>>> reference spec and
>>> we're
>>>>> not
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> a 4.10/4.11 base yet.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> For the record, in the instances where a volume or template
>>>>>>> from
>>>>> snapshot
>>>>>>> was required, the backup image was copied on demand to secondary.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In an ideal world, secondary storage wouldn't even be
>>>>>>> involved in
>>>> most
>>>>> of
>>>>>>> these options, instead using the native clone features of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>> underlying
>>>>>>> storage.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> - Si
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>> From: Suresh Kumar Anaparti <sureshkumar.anaparti@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 1:37 PM
>>>>>>> To: dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Cc: Nathan Johnson
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Snapshots only on Primary Storage feature
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Glen / Si,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In PR# 1697, the global setting *snapshot.backup.rightafter*
>>>>>>> if
>> set
>>>> to
>>>>>>> true, it'll be the default behaviour and snapshot is copied
>>>>>>> to
>> the
>>>>>>> secondary storage. If set to false, then the snapshot state
>>>> transitions
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> mocked and Snapshot would be in BackedUp state even though
>>>>>>> it is
>>> not
>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> in Secondary storage, which doesn't make sense. Also, that
>>>>>>> will
>>>> enable
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> create a volume or template from the snapshot, which will
>> obviously
>>>>> fail.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This behavior was changed with the PR
>>>>>>> https://github.com/apache/cloudstack/pull/2081. There is a
>>>>>>> clear separation of create and backup volume snapshot
>>>>>>> operations. The global
>> setting
>>>>>>> *snapshot.backup.rightafter* has been removed in PR# 2081.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -Suresh
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 8:40 PM, Simon Weller
>>>> <sweller@xxxxxxx.invalid
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Glen,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> This feature was implemented in 4.9 by my colleague Nathan
>>> Johnson.
>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>> enable it by changing the global setting
>>>> snapshot.backup.rightafter
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> false.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The PR is reference here: https://github.com/apache/
>>>>>> cloudstack/pull/1697
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We have the exact same use case as you, as we also use Ceph.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> - Si
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>> From: Glen Baars <glen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2018 9:46 AM
>>>>>>>> To: dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: Snapshots only on Primary Storage feature
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hello Devs,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have been thinking about a feature request and want to
>>>>>>>> see
>> what
>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>> think about the use case.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We use KVM + Ceph RBD as storage.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Currently, when a client takes a snapshot, Cloudstack
>>>>>>>> takes a
>>> Ceph
>>>>>>>> snapshot and then uses qemu-img to export to secondary storage.
>>>> This
>>>>>>>> creates a full backup of the server. Clients want to use
>>>>>>>> this
>> as
>>> a
>>>>>> daily
>>>>>>>> snapshot and it isn’t feasible due to the space requirements.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We would like create the snapshot only on primary storage.
>>>>>>>> It
>> is
>>>>>>>> replicated offsite and fault tolerant. I can see that the
>>> download
>>>>>>> snapshot
>>>>>>>> and create template features may be an issue.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have seen the below features in the recent releases and
>>> wondered
>>>> if
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> was the direction that the development was going.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Separation of volume snapshot creation on primary storage
>>>>>>>> and
>>>> backing
>>>>>>>> operation on secondary storage.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Bypass secondary storage template copy/transfer for KVM.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Glen Baars
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> BackOnline Manager
>>>>>>>> 
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