OSDir


[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [DISCUSS] Concerns about the Arrow Slack channel


I am +1 for dropping slack as well, for all of the reasons mentioned.

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:53 AM Dhruv Madeka <madeka@xxxxxxx> wrote:

> Here's my best guess, emails force everyone on the list to read it, so they
> have to meet a higher bar of importance?
>
> Pure guess there, im just channeling my experiences- I dont mind mailing
> dev lists personally
>
> Dhruv
>
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Phillip Cloud <cpcloud@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > Dhruv,
> >
> > I'm curious why the dev mailing list is considered intrusive. Can you
> > expand a bit on that? I've always thought of mailing lists to be *the*
> > place where people go to ask questions about a project in a way that is
> > open to all. They are also archived and organized in some way that makes
> it
> > easy to go back and look at specific topics without having to piece
> > together a topic's history from a large tapestry of interactions. If
> > anything, I view chat as *more* intrusive since there's IMO an
> expectation
> > of a faster response given that chat is real-time.
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 11:13 AM Dhruv Madeka <madeka@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > > Not to jump in too randomly, but for jupyter-widgets/bqplot
> > > <https://github.com/bloomberg/bqplot> - we haven't found an optimal
> > > solution to this.
> > >
> > > - The dev mailing list is often considered to be intrusive
> > > - GitHub issues arent really used for simple questions or non-bug fixes
> > > - Gitter remains our most popular source of questions, which suffers a
> > lot
> > > of the problems of Slack outlined in Wes' email
> > >
> > > We're considering discuss forums, specially after the large success of
> > the
> > > PyTorch <https://discuss.pytorch.org> and MXNet <
> > https://discuss.mxnet.io>
> > > forums for building community, allowing comfort in asking simple
> > questions
> > > and being stored/googleable
> > >
> > > Dhruv
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 4:25 AM, Wes McKinney <wesmckinn@xxxxxxxxx>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I wanted to bring up some concerns I have about the Slack room hosted
> > > > at http://apachearrow.slack.com.
> > > >
> > > > Corporate communications have changed a lot in recent years with the
> > > > new wave of IRC-like chat systems such as HipChat and Slack. In many
> > > > companies, Slack has become a preferred form of communication over
> > > > e-mail or other asynchronous messaging tools. This trend is
> negatively
> > > > impacting Apache Arrow in some ways that I will explain.
> > > >
> > > > Initially we created the Arrow Slack channel as a means of secondary
> > > > communication, to facilitate real-time discussions and help build the
> > > > community. So people, particularly newcomers, are coming to the
> > > > project and seeing 4 ways to communicate:
> > > >
> > > > * dev@ Mailing list
> > > > * JIRA
> > > > * GitHub
> > > > * Slack
> > > >
> > > > As a result of broader trends in the world, they are electing to use
> > > > Slack as their first, primary channel to interact with the project.
> > > > This is bad for many reasons:
> > > >
> > > > * Slack is essentially private. While anyone can join Slack, chats
> are
> > > > not archived in any public place, nor are they searchable through
> > > > internet search portals. I do not think it meets the public
> > > > communication requirements of Apache projects in general
> > > > * We've exceeded the message limit for free Slack channels; upgrading
> > > > to a paid Slack plan for Apache Arrow, with 650+ members, would be
> > > > very expensive
> > > > * Only 3 out of the top 20 Arrow contributors (by # of commits) are
> > > > regularly on the Slack channel. I don't use Slack, for example, and I
> > > > would rather not be expected to
> > > > * We are geo-distributed in many time zones; even if we all used
> > > > Slack, synchronous/real-time chat to discuss the project is
> frequently
> > > > impractical
> > > >
> > > > Because of the "real-time" nature of IRC-like systems, people's
> > > > discussions and questions get intermingled, so keeping track of
> > > > longer-running discussions may be difficult. It's hard to know when
> > > > someone's question has been answered or whether people have
> > > > sufficiently discussed a particular topic.
> > > >
> > > > Many discussions or questions are by their nature asynchronous, and
> it
> > > > may take 24-72 hours or more for Arrow contributors to make a
> > > > thoughtful reply.
> > > >
> > > > As a result of all of this, we are missing opportunities to have
> > > > deeper discussions, develop the Arrow roadmap, create new JIRAs to
> > > > capture bug reports or feature requests, and other activities of
> > > > healthy open source communities. Additionally, the private nature of
> > > > Slack is causing organizational knowledge (particularly Q&A / FAQs)
> to
> > > > essentially be lost. Users with questions won't stumble on answers by
> > > > searching on Google (as they would with a mailing list or
> > > > StackOverflow).
> > > >
> > > > I don't think Slack is necessarily bad for users in a corporate
> > > > environment; in many companies it is expected that all people will
> > > > have the Slack client open at all times. This isn't the case here,
> > > > though.
> > > >
> > > > My strong preference in light of the activity I have been observing
> on
> > > > Slack (which I encourage you to explore yourselves) would be to close
> > > > the channel and direct discussions or questions take place on the
> > > > mailing list, JIRA, or GitHub (all of which are archived on one or
> > > > more ASF mailing lists). Since migrating to Gitbox, we have enabled
> > > > GitHub issues on the repository, which has helped lower the barrier
> > > > for newcomers, but a large percentage of the time GitHub issues would
> > > > be better as JIRA issues or e-mails (which is what the GitHub issue
> > > > template says, alas).
> > > >
> > > > Interested to hear the thoughts of others on this.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Wes
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
-- 

Asst. Prof. Anthony Scopatz
Nuclear Engineering Program
Mechanical Engineering Dept.
University of South Carolina
scopatz@xxxxxxxxxx
Cell: (512) 827-8239
Book a meeting with me at https://scopatz.youcanbook.me/
Open up an issue: https://github.com/scopatz/me/issues
Check my calendar
<https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=scopatz%40gmail.com>