OSDir


[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [VOTE][RESULT] Replace with Gitter with Slack?


So, binding VOTEs are generally only called on releases, where PMC
members get those binding votes (and on electing new committers or PMC
members, and those votes happen in private on the private list).
Communities often call VOTEs on other things, like logos, questions of
sponsorship, large scale tech decisions, etc.  How those VOTEs are
executed (consesus [ie anyone with a binding vote can VETO] or
majority) are up to the community to decide.

The community can codify those decisions with bylaws (Here's Hadoop's:
https://hadoop.apache.org/bylaws.html).  However, extensive bylaws are
considered an anti-pattern - they can be indicative of a fractured or
unwieldy community.  This is why Incubator projects are not generally
recommended to go down this route.  Also, incubator podlings are not
separate top-level projects, and so would be governed by the Incubator
project bylaws, which as far as I can tell, don't exist.

Also, keep in mind that the bylaws of any particular project are valid
at the pleasure of the Board.  If the Board deems any part of them
invalid, which it has done even very recently, it can come in and
require the project to change them immediately.

As for the current discussion, the large number of <1 votes, is a bit
concerning.  This is indicative of lack of consensus and that further
discussion is probably warranted.  Whether or not it's an official
result is up for debate.

However, one thing worth noting is that there's no 'official' gitter
or slack channel for any ASF project.  The only official communication
medium for ASF is mailing lists.  The edict 'If it didn't happen on
the mailing list, it didn't happen' is one of the axioms of the Apache
Way [1][2].  There's also no official IRC channel or official Stack
Overflow tag or official in-person meetup.  Every member of the
community is welcome to participate in whatever forum they want, but
the only place things actually happen is on the list.  Any non-PMC
discussions can happen anywhere, but if a decision needs to occur as
part of that discussion, the discussion needs to be re-homed onto the
mailing list and made there.  Part of the PMC's job is to enforce and
model this behavior.

Speaking entirely for myself, I'm not comfortable with the invitation
model of Slack discussions.  For most of my time at Apache, irc was
the way to go for most projects.  Some had very active irc channels
and some were nearly dead.  (The #infra irc channel is a godsend
though.)

And again, this type of meta discussion is awesome.  It shows the
project is maturing and thinking through some of the edge cases of
what it means to an Apache project.

-Jakob



[1] https://community.apache.org/newbiefaq.html#NewbieFAQ-IsthereaCodeofConductforApacheprojects?
[2] https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/success-at-apache-asynchronous-decision

On 8 September 2018 at 23:14, Sid Anand <sanand@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Taking Binding votes into account :
>
> +1: 1 vote
>
>    - Sid Anand
>
> 0: 2 votes
>
>    - Bolke de Bruin
>    - Kaxil Naik
>
> -0.5: 1 vote
>
>    - Arthur Wiedmer
>
>
> Vote result is a net positive of +0.5.
>
> I counted all of the PMC/committers' votes as binding.
>
> -s
>
> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 11:07 PM Arthur Wiedmer <arthur.wiedmer@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
>> Sid,
>>
>> Erm, the next line is (emphasis mine) :
>>
>> PMC members have formally binding votes, but in general community members
>> are encouraged to vote, even if their votes are *only advisory*.
>>
>> Again, that's not to say that the community at large cannot decide to host
>> a Slack channel. I think you are more than welcome to if you want to.
>>
>> Best,
>> Arthur
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 10:59 PM Sid Anand <sanand@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> > Why doesn't every vote matter for this topic?
>> > https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html#binding-votes
>> >
>> > Am I misinterpreting the "Who is permitted to vote is, to some extent, a
>> > community-specific thing."?
>> >
>> > For the established Apache processes around promoting a contributor to
>> > committer/PMC, deciding on the number of +1s to allow a merge to master,
>> or
>> > voting on releases, I understand the need to follow the
>> binding/non-binding
>> > protocol. In all of those cases, the outcomes affect maintainers.
>> >
>> > My understanding is that this topic affects the entire community, where
>> > some members of the community are helping others. This seems to chug
>> along
>> > without maintainers being present. Hence, why do maintainers' votes
>> matter
>> > more here?
>> >
>> > Question for the mentors.. Jakob?
>> >
>> > -s
>> >
>> > On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 10:27 PM Bolke de Bruin <bdbruin@xxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Committers can only vote binding. Most of the time it is tagged by,
>> > > indeed, adding "binding" to the vote.
>> > >
>> > > Sent from my iPhone
>> > >
>> > > > On 9 Sep 2018, at 07:20, Scott Halgrim <scott.halgrim@xxxxxxxxxx
>> > .INVALID>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > What makes a vote binding? Just putting “(binding)” after your vote?
>> > > >> On Sep 8, 2018, 10:19 PM -0700, Bolke de Bruin <bdbruin@xxxxxxxxx>,
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >> Sorry sid, only binding votes directly count to the vote. Please
>> > update
>> > > the
>> > > >> result accordingly.
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Btw did you ask on gitter itself?
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >>
>> > > >> Op zo 9 sep. 2018 03:47 schreef Sid Anand <sanand@xxxxxxxxxx>:
>> > > >>
>> > > >>> +1: 12 votes
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> - Sid Anand
>> > > >>> - Steve Carpenter
>> > > >>> - Beau Barker
>> > > >>> - Marc Bollinger
>> > > >>> - Pedro Machado
>> > > >>> - Scott Halgrim
>> > > >>> - Eamon Keane
>> > > >>> - Adam Boscarino
>> > > >>> - Daniel Cohen
>> > > >>> - Chandu Kavar
>> > > >>> - William Horton
>> > > >>> - Ben Gregory
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> 0: 2 votes
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> - Bolke de Bruin
>> > > >>> - Kaxil Naik
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> -0.5: 1 vote
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> - Arthur Wiedmer
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> -1: 4 votes
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> - Shah Altaf
>> > > >>> - James Meickle
>> > > >>> - Ravi Kotecha
>> > > >>> - airflowuser (??)
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> The vote concludes with 12 votes for and 4.5 votes against. The
>> > > community
>> > > >>> has opted to move to Slack from Gitter.
>> > > >>>
>> > > >>> -s
>> > > >>>
>> > >
>> >
>>